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Melissa Fleming 00:00

Never lose hope. The light is always there somehow. That was the message I took away from this week's powerful conversation.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 00:09

What has always struck me is encounters with people who are extremely resilient, who believe in the goodness of the other, who believe, who actually see hope, including in the most atrocious circumstances, and who just keep doing the right thing.

 

Melissa Fleming 00:39

Volker T¨¹rk is the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, and he's devoted his life to protecting some of the world's most vulnerable people. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. Welcome to Awake at Night. It's good to have you here, Volker.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 01:05

Really happy to be here with you.

 

Melissa Fleming 01:07

Yeah. Back in New York.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 01:08

Back in New York.

 

Melissa Fleming 01:09

Yeah. We had the pleasure of working with you here for a couple of years. And then back when you were in UNHCR for so many years, when we were both there. And I'm really looking forward to getting into that. But...

 

Volker T¨¹rk 01:23

Old friends.

 

Melissa Fleming 01:23

Old friends and colleagues and... But I want to talk about your job right now. You've taken on a job that has been described as famously difficult. You have to work with world leaders to improve human rights, and you also have to call them out when they violate them. It sounds like an impossible task. How do you approach it?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 01:46

Well, I mean, it is actually a pretty impossible task, but that's also why it is so fascinating. And I think at the end of the day, what I've realized that everyone - even those who trample law and human rights every day - at the end of the day, they do believe that there is something right in it, and they see the value of human rights. And I think the most important is to be consistent, to emphasize the law, to emphasize the impact that it has on people. And I think that's what really human rights can bring to life. And if you approach it - even in the most difficult geopolitical tensions that we face - in this way, I think it helps go through the turbulence of our times.

 

Melissa Fleming 02:38

So you have to be consistent in not compromising.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 02:43

That's right. I mean, I have talked about the United Kingdom I think at least five times ever since I took office. So, on various issues where, you know, we thought there are issues of human rights and especially adoption of the law, the Rwanda-UK deal is a good example. But the same with China, DRC, of course Gaza-Israel context, Ukraine, Russia. So yes, whenever it comes to issues of war, on restrictions to civic space, of suppression of populations, we have the standards, we have the norms on our side, and we apply them. And we apply them equally to everyone.

 

Melissa Fleming 03:30

And they all signed up to them.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 03:32

And they all signed up to them. So it's the obligations that they themselves have accepted. And actually the law is on our side. And that's really what is different. If we sometimes go back to the beginnings of the United Nations, it's important to remember out of the horrific experience of the Second World War, the Holocaust, the atrocity crimes, all of these horrors that happened, we did manage to establish a legal order that is there to serve the people of the world. I'm the guardian of one very important aspect of that legal order, which is human rights.

 

Melissa Fleming 04:10

So nobody gets away with your coming and reminding them, no matter how powerful they are, no matter how rich they are.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 04:18

That's right. And human rights is the strongest language, is the strongest tool that we have in our hands to actually be a voice of those who don't have power, and to speak truth to those who have the power and to make sure that they understand that yes, that there are limits to power as well.

 

Melissa Fleming 04:45

And those limits are constantly being tested. And I say the ones that probably we're all most exposed to and horrified by are when it's in the theatre of war. And now we have this war in Gaza. We had the horrific attacks by Hamas against Israel that sparked it off. You've been to Rafah. You've said there have been clear violations of international humanitarian law, including war crimes, and you've said that they've been committed by all parties. Why?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 05:26

Well, it is of utmost importance when there is war to make sure that we bring it back to the rules of war that all parties are bound by. Because sometimes I hear one is only a state. But no, it's also non-state actors that are bound by the rules of war. And to point that out and to make it also human, to bring it down to the human level.

I mean if we see the suffering of people on all sides. I mean, you... I met with hostages and families of Israeli hostages and their family members and yes, it moves you deeply when you listen to their plight, when you listen to how they... their anguish and how they are worried about things. But then I also talked, of course, to survivors of bombardments of Palestinians and I sometimes look into their eyes, and I see this utter hopelessness, the fact that they don't even know what their future could be like. And that again... And you know, the fact that they get attacked. They don't know... They get displaced many times. That they get malnourished.

I talk to my own staff who I remember one of them was telling me, and I was at a loss for words, that 20 of his family members had been killed. There was another staff member whose wife, seven months pregnant, twice already displaced. He said, 'I don't know where my wife is going to give birth in the theatre of war.' I mean, this is heartbreaking.

And it also shows I'm sorry, this absolute senselessness of violence and of war, which we all thought, 'It's part of the 19th century, it's part of the 20th century.' No, it's coming back with a vengeance. And it is so primitive at the end of the day. It's... When I listen to those warmongers and those who wage war, I can only... What I see and hear is, you know, is the utter... Yeah, is primitive to the core.

 

Melissa Fleming 07:59

And in the end, the outcome...

 

Volker T¨¹rk 08:02

Yes, it's more violence. It's more destruction. It's no hope. And I just... I mean, I sometimes wish that the conscience of our human conscience would develop in such a way that we would overcome the vengeance and the revenge and the retaliation and this what I call the illogic of escalation. And that we actually would find ways and means to actually say, 'Well, maybe there are other ways to deal with conflict. There are other ways of keeping communication channels open to actually learn again the art of de-escalation and the art of engaging rather than the contrary.'

 

Melissa Fleming 08:45

Many people would be surprised to hear that there are actual rules of war. What are those rules? I mean, first of all, I think you hope that we wouldn't have... You just said we wouldn't have to go to war in the first place. But if here we are, what are those rules?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 09:02

So again, going back to the basics of it. 19th century - Battle of Solferino. Horrible battles in the 19th century where prisoners of war were taken and killed, tortured. Where the wounded weren't taken care of, where the civilian population was seen as a normal collateral damage. Then we had the two big world wars. And, you know, even in the 19th century there was this movement with the international establishment of the International Committee of the Red Cross and the Red Cross movement more generally to actually establish rules of warfare. And to say, 'No, you should have some basic humanity in warfare.'

And then after the Second World War this body of law was codified in 1949, in these four Geneva Conventions. And at the essence of it, it's about military necessity, distinction between military targets and civilians. And you have to spare the civilians. It's about proportionality and precaution, especially when it comes to civilian life. And there are special protections for hospitals. There are special protections for civilian infrastructure.

But what we see - and quite frankly that's what sometimes frightens me - we see the dehumanization of "the other" in wars. And I heard once from one general who would say, 'Well, you know, of course we believe in the rules of war. But it doesn't apply to animals.' And that's where the dehumanization starts. Because actually you don't see the other as the other, you see the other as something else inhuman. And that's very dangerous. And that's a very slippery slope, because once this brutality starts, it's very difficult to get out of it.

 

Melissa Fleming 11:17

And you're very outspoken in calling out not only this language, but these actions that break those rules of war. What happens when you're out there and outspoken and criticize the perpetrators?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 11:34

Of course they don't like it as you can imagine. So they push back, they attack. There are usually very strong reactions. But what I also see is that we move, especially in warfare, into this either "for me" or "against me" attitude. A very binary view of the world. And if you are not seen to be taking sides with either party or with one party, you're seen as the enemy, especially when you criticize. So our objective for the UN and for me as High Commissioner is to actually say, 'Look, we are here and we take a very strong stance when it comes to the protection of civilians, to the protection of human rights. And whoever did it is having to be held to account.' And of course, the ones who did these things generally don't want to be called out, and they will resist it with whatever means they can do.

 

Melissa Fleming 12:47

Including, criticizing you personally.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 12:50

Criticizing me personally.

 

Melissa Fleming 12:51

How do you deal with that?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 12:52

I don't take it personally. I mean, I see my function... As a duty, as a responsibility, I see my function as something that is... Yeah. It's a trust and it's a responsibility and I owe this also to the people that I have seen. You know, I have been having so many encounters with victims of survivors of war, with people who are displaced as a result of war, with people who have gone through warfare, and I owe it to them.

 

Melissa Fleming 13:32

I believe you visited Ukraine also in this function. Is there something from that visit that really struck you in terms of the people side of this horrific war?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 13:46

Yeah. So I went there. It was my second visit in my function as High Commissioner. I went there in December. So it was during the winter. And, you know, you take the train. I took the train from the Slovak border to Kyiv. And it's a night train. But of course the windows are darkened, and they are plastered so that in case there is an explosion nothing happens to us inside. It was very eerie, I have to say. I remember this very eerie feeling. You know, going for 12 hours in this night train.

And when I woke up the next day, we were in Kyiv. There was snow everywhere. It was bitter cold. And I had a chance to then meet, of course, with the authorities, but also with civil society and with non-government... I mean, representatives of human rights defenders and representatives of the NGOs. And suddenly we had the alarm go off. So we all had to go to the bunker. And what struck me is what routine it has become for the people who live there. I mean, for me, of course, it was, you know, a very worrying experience. But for them it's become their lives.

 

Melissa Fleming 15:11

Going to the bunker.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 15:12

It has become going to the bunker, going out again, hoping that nothing happened to their family members. Calling them, trying to see what happens. And that's, you know, when the abnormal becomes the new normal about how does it affect children? How does it affect women? How does it affect men? I mean, and that's the trauma that you see as a result of all of this and that accumulates. It¡¯s horrific. And of course, I went to some of those areas that had just been liberated on the Ukrainian side. And when you talk to a woman who is in front of a totally demolished house that belonged to her, and she tells me that her whole family had been killed. Then you talk to someone else, and you see these mass graves, and you sort of wonder, 'How do people get out of this?'

 

Melissa Fleming 16:14

When you think about all of these situations that you just described. What's keeping you most awake at night?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 16:27  

I mean what really makes me extremely worried is about, you know, how we can get out of this mindset of violence, of polarization, of this view of the world that is extremely limited, that reduces human beings to one characteristic, one identity. And how we turn this around. I mean, what more can we do? How can we innovate our work?

And actually it's sometimes... You know, I have had a couple of times when I woke up during the night and when suddenly an idea comes up. Because probably your unconscious works with you and, you know, you try to resolve some of those issues that you bring to bed. And then suddenly there are these, you know, these great ideas that you suddenly have.

I mean, shouldn't we try this? Shouldn't we push more on this? Shouldn't we try to, you know, speak to this person now or to this interlocutor? And shouldn't I go to this place? And so you also... There is always this... You know, that's what is so fascinating about the mind. We also have this innate ability to refresh ourselves and to find solutions. And especially when it's particularly¡­when there is a lot of doom and gloom around us. I mean, we have also the light in us, and we need to bring it out.

 

Melissa Fleming 18:13

So I'm curious about that light because there are these horrible wars going on and these inequalities that you described. Where do you see light and hope?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 18:26  

I think even within warfare or within inequalities, what has always struck me is encounters with people who are extremely resilient, who believe in the goodness of the other, who believe, who actually see hope, including in the most atrocious circumstances, and who just keep doing the right thing. And you see this in the most unexpected circumstances.

I mean, I remember I was serving in the eastern Congo in '97 during a very difficult period of the history of that country. I remember I met some local officials. And it was war going on. And it was really a very, very precarious situation all around. And they just kept the dignity of their office, and they did everything they could in order to save people who had just come out of the jungle, of the rainforest and abominable circumstances. And they just kept on doing the right thing.

So we see also this incredible human spirit that we don't talk enough about. I mean, I admire the human rights defenders I have met over time or the refugees that I've met. And that actually shows us that - yes, the light is within us, and we just have to bring it out more. And we need to identify the people that, you know, are remarkable in what they do. Yeah, and I think that keeps us all going.

 

Melissa Fleming 20:19

What made you want to work in human rights?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 20:23

I have... I mean, it goes back, I don't know maybe to my formative years. I mean, it goes back to... I still remember when I first read the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. It was... And it's a story I've told before. I was 15. It was during my English lessons, and there was a story about children in the developing world where they described what it meant for them to go to school. And they walked for 1-2 hours. It was dangerous for them. Sometimes the teacher wouldn't come or would beat them up. Then they walked back home, and they had to work at home. And it was in a way an illustration of - you know, growing up in Austria - of an environment that I couldn't even imagine. But realizing that, you know, at that time probably the vast majority of children had to endure this made me shudder and sympathize and I felt this solidarity with them. Although, of course, I didn't know who these other children were.

And then I... When you read then in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that everyone has the right to education, that everyone has a right to freedoms and to fundamental freedoms, and to live a life in dignity, and that we are all born equal in dignity and rights, it put wings under me. And it has - this enthusiasm for this text - has never left me. I remember I put it up on my door, the text, and I kept... I still to this day I have a copy of that particular Universal Declaration of Rights text that I got at the time. It's now quite overused and yellowed paper. But it really... There was something that, yeah, that resonated with me. That was my eureka moment.

 

Melissa Fleming 22:34

You think it had to do with your also growing up in postwar Austria.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 22:38

Yes, it certainly did because of course, when you grew up during these years you also realize the history of your own country. There was a lot of talk about Austria being the first victim, but there was also more and more talk about Austria being a very significant perpetrator. A lot of Austrians were Nazis and who had committed, were participating in the Holocaust, and were participating in atrocity crimes and in horrible war crimes. But there was a discomfort with that history. I remember I often stood up because I read a lot about the history of the country, I read a lot about the Second World War, interwar period, Second World War. And it shocked me deeply that this could have happened just in the places that I lived. And yeah. And also, I mean, dealing with anti-Semitism was something that... Because I could still feel that, and I could hear remarks that were anti-Semitic.

 

Melissa Fleming 23:49

Still?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 23:50

At that time, yes. And it actually showed me how important it is that we need to go back to that history. We need to understand it, and we need to make sure that everyone knows what their place is. And it really motivated me a lot to then, you know, work. When I started law, I had a lot of encounters with refugees. And as a lawyer, you get asked about, you know, their legal issues. And so I grew into this area of work. And as a lawyer, I never wanted to become a corporate lawyer. I mean, with all due respect to corporate lawyers, they're very important, of course. But I always saw law as a vehicle to achieve justice or to work towards justice and to use the law as a progressive tool for societal change.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:47

You decided to join a UN organization - UNHCR.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 24:52

Yes.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:53

What made you decide to not only apply for a job at UNHCR, the UN Refugee Agency, but also why refugees?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 25:06

Refugees... And let's not forget Europe. And if we look at today's, you know, debates about displacement and refugees, you sort of wonder sometimes. But, I mean, Europe had 60 million people who were displaced at the time after the Second World War. I mean, people who hadn't¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 25:25

60 million.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 25:26

60 million. I mean, people who were on the move in Europe were 60 million. I mean, they were not all... I mean, some of them were IDPs, some of them were returning POWs, some of them were refugees, some of them were, you know, basically uprooted in one way or another. And it was an issue that, of course... It was still sort of towards the end of the Cold War when I started working for UNHCR. But it was also clear with, you know, Iranian refugees, with refugees from already Afghanistan, from different parts of the world. Every encounter with, you know, Iranian refugees that I remember was an encounter into a different culture. It was a window into a world that I hadn't. I mean, I was fascinated by, and I wanted to understand it more.

But I... You know, it also showed this inequality of our lifestyles because I was in a very secure environment. I had everything. And I also realized, well, that there is a huge part of the world that lives in very different circumstances. I also always ask myself, 'What is it that our role is in all of this? Do we have a responsibility?' And we do. I mean, the interconnectedness of us as human beings is also part of this. So it fascinated me too, because for me refugees almost become... They epitomize, they represent us in our humanity.

 

Melissa Fleming 27:10

In what way?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 27:12

They show us what solidarity means. They teach us solidarity. But they also push us to think differently about the world. And yeah, I found that an eye opener. But of course, there was the human... I mean, they were... You know, some of my friends were refugees. So I mean it... Also there is this human connection with the plight of someone who gets uprooted because of war, violence, and human rights violations.

 

Melissa Fleming 27:48

And what was it about being in the positions that you were at UNHCR, including I believe you said in DRC and in Malaysia...?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 27:58

And Kuwait.

 

Melissa Fleming 28:00

Kuwait, Kosovo.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 28:00  

Bosnia.

 

Melissa Fleming 28:01

Bosnia. I mean, and then I think you spent almost 25 years at UNHCR, and you kept rising in the ranks, and you became the Assistant High Commissioner for Protection. With all of that insight and travel and, you know, into people who were uprooted. Is there anything that you took from that about the human experience that really, you know, stays with you?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 28:36

Well, I mean the... I mean, I always... What I always found amazing in my, you know, when I talk to refugees, when I sat down with them was... I mean, first of all, what they told me about where they came from and how their life was and how from one day to the next it gets turned around and uprooted. And they end up in this situation that sometimes we forget that anyone could end up in. And also their...  I mean, for lack of a better word, their resilience, their perseverance, their belief, their hopes, their aspirations and how they turn around a calamitous situation into something that is positive. And that's often what I've found with refugees. I mean, despite the fact that they had lost everything, they've managed to, you know, come up with a new life.

 

Melissa Fleming 29:33

Especially if they can manage to keep their families.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 29:36

Yes, if they managed to keep their families. But then, I mean, what I also saw - and that broke my heart - is the warehousing phenomenon. You know, where refugees end up in camps. No hope in sight. Sometimes 20 years. Where they're essentially detained, frankly, and can't get out of their camp environment. And where you sort of wonder what happens to them. What is their future? I mean, we see it with Palestinian refugees in the West Bank, Gaza or in the Middle East. Or we see it with, I mean, Afghan refugees in different parts of the world or with Sudanese refugees and...

 

Melissa Fleming 30:23

Or Somali refugees.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 30:23

Somali refugees in Kenya. Yeah.  

 

Melissa Fleming 30:26

Three generations. And because it's still so dangerous they can't go back.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 30:30

Yeah. So there is also... And you know, I was... As you as you know, I was very much negotiating this global refugee compact. It was really to actually lead to a paradigm shift of how we deal with refugees, to actually see them as part of the community, to see them as part of development. To also make sure that they get on with their lives, that they are not just stuck and fossilized in their existence. That they actually... That there is a movement in them. And I think, I hope that this Global Compact on Refugees would help advance that.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:14

Is that what you're most proud of?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 31:16

Oh. In my refugee... I think... Oh, gosh, I'm very proud of... I mean, I'm proud of... I mean, I remember people who I managed to get to a third country, who kept in touch and who told me about how they have been thriving.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:34

Out of the warehousing.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 31:35

Out of the warehousing. You know when we actually found a solution for them. And some of them, you know, they wrote to me afterwards and they told me what happened to their lives. You sort of touch their lives, and you feel that you have just been a little element that just turned it to the positive, and that's wonderful. I mean, yes, I think the... I mean, on the if you like, the more conceptual side, yes. I think we.... I mean, I'm actually also very proud of making sure that refugee law was or is a force to be reckoned with in courts. I appeared before courts as UNHCR defending refugee rights. But also then that these massive negotiations of this multilateral Global Compact on Refugees, yes, I think it's a very important legacy.

 

Melissa Fleming 32:36

You then moved to New York because the Secretary-General of the United Nations, the former High Commissioner for Refugees, Ant¨®nio Guterres, asked you to come join him and take on a critical policy role in his office. And you worked there for a few years and ended up also creating a seminal document with him. What was that? And what do you hope for this piece of work?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 33:09

I mean, it's an incredible privilege to work for the Secretary-General, but also to work on the 38th floor, to have this bird's eye view of the world and of the UN system, of the multilateral system as a whole. And I am extremely grateful to have had this opportunity because you don't often get this in your life. I mean, to really see each and every issue that the world grapples with, to try to find... You know, to help strategize around it, to develop policies. And yes, it culminated in the report that the Secretary-General presented to the General Assembly - Our Common Agenda.

 

Melissa Fleming 33:48

And the gist of it is to?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 33:51

Well, to ensure that multilateralism responds to the challenges of our time. I mean, that's... And to be fit for the future, that we are as an institution fit for the future, which means innovation, which means that we change, that also the institutions change, that they adapt. And that we deal with the big problems of our time - triple planetary crisis. The financial architecture, the huge inequalities, the sustainability, the lagging behind on the sustainable development, the huge peace and security challenges with A New Agenda for ¹ú²úAV that we address. And you yourself have been working on the integrity side on the media landscape, on the communication landscape. So I think, yeah, I mean, the [inaudible]... And also to look into the future, to look at what future generations, what their rights are and how we need to take this into account in whatever we do today.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:49

I recall we had a discussion during this time that you were there, and I had also joined here in New York. And it was... It became known that Michelle Bachelet, the High Commissioner for Human Rights at the time, was stepping down and that this job was going to be open. And there was a light in your eyes. And I remember you saying to me something like, 'This this is the kind of position I've been waiting for all of my life.' Do I recall that...?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 35:23

Yes. I hope you see that light still in me.

 

Melissa Fleming 35:24

I still see the light. Is that...? Why is that?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 35:32

I mean, I always felt having served for refugees and for people who have lost everything and who have fled human rights violations for close to 30 years that I wanted to work on how we can make sure that they don't have to flee in the first place. And I always thought that... I mean, it goes back to my beginnings, as I mentioned, when I was 15 years old, this fascination with human rights. It always inspired me my whole life. So of course, I thought, 'My goodness, to be able to become High Commissioner. Yes, it would be my dream job.'

 

Melissa Fleming 36:16

Do you sometimes wish that you might have picked an easier job?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 36:21

I love the job. I won't miss any minute of it.

 

Melissa Fleming 36:31

I'm just wondering about your parents, and any other members of your family. I mean, what do they think about you working in this capacity now?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 36:45

My parents are I think very proud of what I... Of, you know, also seeing me speak out on things that they all feel very strongly about. And yeah, I think it's... I think they also, having gone through the history, in many ways they also see this as a way of giving voice to what they have experienced and what they have seen. So yes, they...

 

Melissa Fleming 37:16

So they always encouraged you in this line of work?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 37:19

Yeah. They were very positive. And they, of course... I remember my mother was always worried about some of the troubles and some of the things, but they were always very supportive.

 

Melissa Fleming 37:31

The UN Declaration of Human Rights is now over 75 years old. Do you think it will survive another 75 years? And are you optimistic that human rights will prevail?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 37:42

I am absolutely convinced that we will have in 25 years the 100th anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. And I think we are going through a very bad period. You probably have heard me quote Antonio Gramsci. There is this famous saying where he says, 'The old has not yet died, the new is not yet born, and in between is a monster.' I think we are living through this, but I can already see what new comes out. And I believe it is the light and the Universal Declaration is part of it.

 

Melissa Fleming 38:19

I believe you also said that if it were to be negotiated now, it would never be as strong as it is.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 38:27

I think if it had to be negotiated at this very point in time, I fear we would not see the same text. At the same time, it was remarkable last year that I did not hear any voice of dissent from anyone. So it's alive and kicking.

 

Melissa Fleming 38:48

What is the essence of what every human being needs?

 

Volker T¨¹rk 38:55

A hope for a future. Yeah.

 

Melissa Fleming 39:01

Hope.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 39:02

Hope. Indeed. And that's what human rights brings to the table.

 

Melissa Fleming 39:09

Yeah. On that note, let's continue to fight for that. And thank you, Volker.

 

Volker T¨¹rk 39:17

Thank you, Melissa. Really great to have had this conversation.

 

Melissa Fleming 39:22

Thank you. Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, Josie Le Blond, and my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Anzhelika Devis, and Carlos Macias. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.