¹ú²úAV

 

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

My guest this week has a vision, a society where everyone can live healthy lives, both physically and mentally, and where no one is left behind.

 

[00:00:00] Melissa Fleming

Sometimes when you work for the UN, you pay the ultimate price.

 

[00:00:04] Laura Dolci

I think the last thing we did together was he was sitting next to me while I was breastfeeding on a bench at the airport. And then in the end, it was time to go. So, he kissed us goodbye. And I remember telling him in my joking way saying: 'Be sure you come back.'

 

[00:00:26] Melissa Fleming

Laura Dolci's husband, Jean-S¨¦lim Kanaan, didn't come back. He was killed in 2003 when the UN headquarters in Baghdad was hit by a suicide bomber. Twenty-two people died. After his death, Laura kept working for the UN. She is now at the Human Rights Council, where she is Secretary of the Universal Periodic Review. From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. This is Awake at Night. Welcome, Laura.

 

[00:01:15] Laura Dolci

Thank you, Melissa. Thank you for having me here.

 

[00:01:17] Melissa Fleming

Laura, you've worked at the UN for much of your career and working for the UN has had a huge impact on your personal life as well. On the 19th of August 2003, your husband, Jean-S¨¦lim Kanaan, was killed at the UN office in Baghdad when it was targeted in a suicide bomb attack. This was one of the darkest days in UN history, and I'm sure it was the darkest day in your life. Can you just tell me, because this takes us back also in your UN career, when did the two of you first meet?

 

[00:01:57] Laura Dolci

Yes. Thank you for these questions and for an opportunity to go back. Yes. It's been 27 years with this UN flag and this UN badge around my neck. So, it was 1997, and we were both young humanitarians in Bosnia Herzegovina and in the postwar Bosnia. In fact, we had been there both, since the very end of '95.

But we met in, yes, it was the spring of '97. And in fact, we were both in a compound. It was a military base of the Canadian battalion in one of the civilian military weekly meetings. And there is this young man that walked in. Tall and handsome and very opinionated. He was working for one of the UN reconstruction agencies. And I was working with the UN peacekeeping operations that had started after the war. And yes, he was multinational - Egyptian and French. I was Italian. And then... Yes, we met once, twice.

 

[00:03:14] Melissa Fleming

Was it love at first sight?

 

 

[00:03:16] Laura Dolci

It was love at first sight, yes. So, then we... Yes, we were full of enthusiasm and yes, spending our youth basically in a post-conflict zone. And it was very intense. We were up on the hills in northwest Bosnia with tons and tons of snow. And in those days, there was hardly any phone that was working. You're with yourself. And so very quickly, we got to know each other. No movies, no amenities that you have in your comfort zone life. So, it was a very intense getting to know each other.

And then from that moment onwards, we never separated until, as you said, 19th of August 2003. So, we spent six years trying to combine our respective young careers, moving from one field location to the other, including then New York. And then the only place where we were not together was Baghdad, because I stayed back because of the birth of our child. And he did not return.

 

[00:04:30] Melissa Fleming

Can you describe what he was like, his personality.

 

[00:04:36] Laura Dolci

Well, it's you know, maybe I'm a bit biased, but everybody, even today, everybody that I meet that got to know Jean-S¨¦lim, [said] he was a special young guy. In fact, I think what happened on the 19th of August in Baghdad, in such a special operation under the leadership of S¨¦rgio Vieira de Mello. I think it was an A-team. I mean, the 22 that died on that day, many of them were very talented, the best of the best in a sense. And Jean-S¨¦lim was one of them.

He was, as I said, multinational. He grew up in Rome. He had lost his father at a young age himself. And there was something about him - the level of engagement and the same time wit and fun. And in fact, already the year before dying, although he was only 33, he had already written a book that was published in France called "Ma guerre ¨¤ l'indiff¨¦rence" or "My War Against Indifference." So, I think that sentence captures very much who he was.

 

[00:05:45] Melissa Fleming

And what did that translate into for your relationship? You were both working in the field, so it was his commitment to his profession or what kind of person was he?

 

[00:06:01] Laura Dolci

Yeah. I mean, I think there was this match between us that was very much... I mean, I don't want to sound rhetoric, but that UN flag with the values and that blue sky that it shows, you know, it was very much the way we were also as a couple. So, yes, Jean-S¨¦lim was somebody that hated the status quo and would always want to improve things and never take things for what they are.

And so... And there was a passion whenever he was entering a room, you know, it was impossible not to see him. And he had a lot of human intelligence as well and a lot of empathy. He was a pusher. He was somebody that always wanted to be seeing the next step. He was a very hands-on person, so. And I was more on the sort of political police restructuring and so on mission. So, we had complementary jobs in a sense in the same territory.

 

[00:07:05] Melissa Fleming

I mean, you're from Italy and I wonder what made you decide to go and work in Bosnia.

 

[00:07:12] Laura Dolci

Yeah, I... Well, I mean, it's a bit different. I think Jean-S¨¦lim, his father was working for the UN for FAO [Food and Agriculture Organization], although as I said, he died early when Jean-S¨¦lim was barely a teenager, so... In my case, I did not come from a family of diplomats or... In fact, I'm the first one in the family to have even gone to university. So, I come from a border region called South Tyrol. It's in the Alps bordering... It's between Austria and Italy.

 

[00:07:48] Melissa Fleming

That is one of the most beautiful regions in the world.

 

[00:07:49] Laura Dolci

It's very beautiful world. Exactly. It's very beautiful, but it's loaded with a lot of history, including painful history, especially after the First World War. And so, I grew up, yes, basically in a place with different ethnicities, with problems of coexistence. And I don't know... I think it was the fact that I had to learn more than one language already growing up. And then this border. There was this border very close. So, I don't know. I was one of one of the kids that was looking beyond the border rather than just looking at your own small reality. So, I think that must have influenced who I became. And I think I must have been 13 or 14 when I told my parents I want to travel abroad, and I want to work for the UN.

 

[00:08:46] Melissa Fleming

You mentioned that Jean-S¨¦lim had a French mother, and his father was Egyptian and working for FAO. I mean, Jean is a name that everybody knows but Jean-S¨¦lim. What does that name mean?

 

[00:09:00] Laura Dolci

His father and his grandfather, so the Egyptian side, they were all S¨¦lim, so he basically inherited the S¨¦lim from the Egyptian side. And from the French side, as you said, is Jean. And so, the way then they really decided to put it down on paper was with the hyphen in between, which is more than a symbol. It's really this bridge between two names, two continents and two different also people. And in fact, it's the same hyphen that we have put then in the name of our son. So that bridge continues in the family because our son was named Mattia hyphen S¨¦lim Kanaan. So, and nobody dares not to put that hyphen in there.

 

[00:09:53] Melissa Fleming

In the summer 2003, your son was born - Mattia-S¨¦lim. And the two of you were together in Geneva. At the time, I think you said that you were proud to be a UN couple. Why was that?

 

 

[00:10:15] Laura Dolci

Yeah, that's how we met and that's how we were growing up as a couple and as a family. And in fact, when he died, it didn't really take me so much to decide that I would continue to work for the UN. And it wasn't just for the sake of breadwinning. Of course, I found myself alone, 33 years old as a widow, a young widow. So, it was just more than earning a salary.

I remember in those sleepless nights thinking... I'm not sure if it was a proper thinking or ultimately some very primordial way of functioning, but I was trying to imagine this trajectory of... Our son was 26 days old, so what I was going to do with this little thing in my arms? And how to pass the knowledge of his father without his father? So of course, one thing that I instinctively thought was the families. I had to be in a place where it was going to be quite easy to have all these different parts of the families around. The other thing was the language. So, I thought that speaking French, which was the primary language of his father, would be a way for him to know of his father or think in the language that was also the language of thought and of writing of his father.

But then the UN. I said, 'If I leave the UN, I'm leaving a way of being, a way of seeing the world, a way of engagement that was what his father was and what we were and what we were aspiring to be.' And so, I said, 'If I remain under this flag, there's so much in a sense that this young child will breathe of his father without having him.' So... And so, yes, I kept basically the blue flag every day bringing it at home when I was coming back from work. But it took... It was a profound decision to take because, of course, the pain and also the fact that this UN flag was no longer a protection, that these people had been killed in this horrific blast because of the UN. And in a sense, the UN had not been able to protect them also. So, I asked myself a lot of questions, but then the answer was just there. I had to continue to work for the UN.

 

[00:13:16] Melissa Fleming

Can you tell me about the last time you saw him.

 

[00:13:21] Laura Dolci

Yes, it was the 17th of August 2003. Jean-S¨¦lim had been going to Baghdad two months earlier. So, I was pregnant, and it wasn't planned. He got a phone call from Nadia Younes, who was a very dear friend of us, and we had worked with her in Kosovo. And Nadia had joined Sergio and the team that was being put together.

 

[00:13:54] Melissa Fleming

Sergio.

 

[00:13:56] Laura Dolci

S¨¦rgio Vieira de Mello who had been appointed the Special Representative of the Secretary-General. And so, Nadia rang Jean-S¨¦lim to say, 'Can you come with me?' And of course, she knew I was pregnant. But she says, 'This is the startup team. It's only two months. And we really need, you know, good people that hit the ground running.' So of course, we had discussed at length in the family. So, he had negotiated that he would go for 40 days, you know, a month and something before, manage to come back for the birth. We would be going through the first few weeks of Mattia-S¨¦lim's life together and then return for another 40 days to Baghdad. So... And that's what had happened. So, he had come home. So, he was there when Mattia-S¨¦lim was born.

 

[00:14:46] Melissa Fleming

What were those days like, the first few weeks of...?

 

[00:14:49] Laura Dolci

It was basically we spent three weeks together as a young family. And yeah, I'm still in touch with the doctor that was there at the birth because I mean, the jumping up and down of Jean-S¨¦lim when his kid was born. I think they still remember. He was the proudest father ever.

And in fact, he left on the 17th and we took him... We, meaning myself and Mattia-S¨¦lim in the little pram. And we took him to the airport. The plane was late so I could sit there with him waiting a bit longer. So, I think the last thing we did together was he was sitting next to me while I was breastfeeding on a bench at the airport. And then in the end it was time to go. So, he kissed us goodbye. And I remember telling him in my joking way saying: 'Be sure you come back.' And he was like, 'Where do you think I would go? You guys are here. And I, you know, I'm going to count every single second before I'm back.' And then, yes, we kissed goodbye.

And I have to admit, it was here in Geneva at the airport. It took me several years... In fact, until this day when I'm at the airport, I kind of go around not to use exactly the same place, not stepping on the same place where we kissed goodbye last. And then he left. And then...

 

[00:16:30] Melissa Fleming

Were you concerned about his safety?

 

[00:16:32] Laura Dolci

Of course we were. And we had called. And we were sitting there together when he was having conversations on the phone, because in the meantime, the situation in Baghdad had worsened. And sort of that enthusiasm of the first weeks after the arrival of everybody else and, you know, the famous image of the Saddam Hussein statue that had been pulled down. And things were changing and there had been already attacks, increasing number of attacks against US troopers. But then, you know, the feedback that was coming from there was - and this was a bit this naivete that we all had still in those days - that this was about somebody else, that the UN was not a target, would not be a target.

 

[00:17:19] Melissa Fleming

The UN flag was a symbol of protection.

 

[00:17:24] Laura Dolci

Protection. And so, yeah, with that in mind, he left. And I think it was...

 

[00:17:31] Melissa Fleming

How was he welcomed to Baghdad by his colleagues?

 

 

[00:17:33] Laura Dolci

Yeah, he stopped... What I know for sure and some of his colleagues then, you know, shared these memories again and again, is that he arrived, and he had all the pictures of the baby. So, they opened some bottles of I don't know what - champagne or beers or... You know, they celebrated the arrival of Mattia-S¨¦lim.

And then on the 19th morning, he rang me. And he was very happy because the mission had obtained more cellular phones, like very powerful ones. And so basically, he called me from that cell phone, and I had managed to take down the number. And so, I had put that number, that Post-it, yellow Post-it on the little table near the computer. And that's the last call we had. And then, you know, a few hours later, there's no call anymore.

 

[00:18:32] Melissa Fleming

The afternoon after you received the phone call from Jean-S¨¦lim a truck packed with a ton of explosives drove into the UN compound and blew it up. Where were you when you heard this news?

 

[00:18:51] Laura Dolci

Two tons and a half of TNT, by the way.

 

[00:18:56] Melissa Fleming

Two tons. 

 

 

[00:18:56] Laura Dolci

Yeah. You know Mattia-S¨¦lim was, yeah, was a small baby. So, to make him sleep, I was walking around with the pram. So, I had just returned home, and he was kind of making these noises from the pram that it was time for breastfeeding. And so, on the way in, I kind of parked the pram next to the little desk where we had... I mean, in those days it was a big PC. I mean, it's... And that was where the Post-it was there with the number.

And while I was kind of sitting down, you know, taking off my jacket or whatever I was carrying, I kind of... That's the memory I have. I leaned forward. I grabbed the mouse, and I clicked. And the default always thing that I had on the screen was the newspaper La Repubblica. And so, this image appeared and there is this, you know, breaking news sign in Italian saying, 'Explosion at the UN in Baghdad.' And that thing came into my face. And yeah. So, the next thing I know is that I'm standing there in front of the computer. And, you know, I was standing next to the chair. I hadn't sat down and so... And I have this image of my legs like I know I was standing, but for a microsecond, I don't know for how long it lasted. I was looking down and I saw these two legs that were shaking, and my mind was saying, 'Whose legs are those?' There was a disconnect basically between what my body was doing, and my mind was elaborating.

And then instinctively I had this fear that I would collapse. So, I don't know in which order, but I took Mattia-S¨¦lim out from the pram. I put him against me, and I sat down and I kind of tried to stop this movement and put the head in some functioning system. And then I think the next thing I did was to grab the phone and dial obsessively that number. And the strange thing is that the first time it rang. So, I could... There was a sound as if somebody would answer. And then, but nobody answered. And then all of a sudden it stopped and there was this silence. And then, of course, I tried frantically, several times, but that silence... Something switched into my brain and I immediately kind of knew that something cataclysmic was going to happen. I think I managed to breastfeed because in the meantime Mattia-S¨¦lim was crying.

And then, yes. And then from there on, I was alone so for a couple of hours, I think, between calling. In the meantime, of course, the news was spreading. So of course, between the family and then I was making these different phone calls, calling New York, calling embassies, calling everybody. And then others were calling and telling me that they were also trying to. So, it was like a call centre. But I kept repeating everybody, 'He's dead.' I had that instinct that the worst was coming and that it was almost like him telling me, 'Laura, be ready. You need to function now.' Something to that effect. There was a voice telling me, 'You are in charge.'

And of course, the main issue was that I had this baby, and I was alone. So, I had to function. I couldn't let go because the baby had to be safe. So, I think from... I couldn't even choose in a sense. I never really had the option of choosing. And so, life was chosen for me. Yeah, I think it was probably until 10:00 at night or something before it was confirmed that he was dead. But I kind of had entered that mode, that sort of survival mode already few hours before.

So much so that, if I may recall this, in all these phone calls, I... And I was still alone. I immediately thought of one thing, which was this image I had from Bosnia. A certain point in Bosnia we went to visit this refugee camp or... In '99, I was still in Bosnia and Kosovo was being bombed. And so, the Kosovars started to move and many, the most, the majority, they moved down to Albania, but some had ventured into Bosnia. And so, some of these people who had been walking for days and days arrived in the area of operation where we were. And so, I remember visiting this group of Kosovars, and there was this young woman, young mother who had been walking with a baby. And by the time they found some refuge, she had lost the milk. Because, I mean, you are a mother yourself. You know, breastfeeding it all comes from the brain. Right?

And so, I had that image, and I started to really... I mean, my fear is that I would, you know, that my milk would stop that afternoon. And so, amongst the phone calls that I did... Sorry, it makes me laugh now because I... You know, if I think of this young girl 20 years ago... Yeah, I grabbed... I found the number. When I left the hospital, they left... You know, you have this SOS midwife, you know, in case you have problem with your breastfeeding that you can call. So, I called, and I said, 'Listen, I can't be on the phone for a long time. I promise I don't have the baby blues. I'm fine. But I think I'm going to have such a terrible situation tonight that I think my milk will go. What do I have to do? What kind of artificial milk I have to buy?'

And so, this woman was trying to keep me on the phone because she thought that I was self-harming or something wrong had been going on in my household. And I said, 'No, no, just tell me what I need to do.' And so, she gave me the name of milk powder because I didn't have that at home. I was breastfeeding. And so, then I called a friend whether she could go at the pharmacy and on the way buy me this thing. Because I was so concerned. Basically, I was already in a contingency planning. Though, I never used that milk powder. Yeah.

 

[00:26:28] Melissa Fleming

It sounds like you had wonderful support. I mean, at least from your family and your friends and from the hospital.

 

[00:26:35] Laura Dolci

Yes. And that's key.

 

[00:26:36] Melissa Fleming

But how did you deal with this trauma?

 

 

[00:26:42] Laura Dolci

But, you know, as I said, in my case, I honestly didn't have a choice. And then, you know, by wanting to keep the breastfeeding, because that's what I really tried to do the next two to three days. I think that was my salvation in a sense, because every three, four hours, no matter where I was in my grief or shock, life was calling me back, right? So that's how I [inaudible] the steps. So basically, together with the baby, we held on to each other.

But I also think because I met many victims then also during my work - victims of torture, victims of slavery, victims of so many horrific traumas. And, you know, I don't think there's a size that fits all. But you are... Before you are victimized, you are somebody. Right? With a character, with a background, with your own features. So, a lot of it comes into play when the experience of victimhood hits you. You are not born as a victim. There's stuff that happens in you, right?

And although, you know, I don't like the word resilience so much. I think it's a bit overused or abused. Resilience needs nurturing. It's not an open-ended check. I had a level of preparedness somewhere. The years in the field had also showed me what solitude was and what people do sometimes taking, you know, alcohol and medicines. And so, the fact that I chose breastfeeding, and I breastfed then for nine months was also to keep myself safe and away from medicines or drinking or... Yeah. I had to stay clean. Because when you are in so much grief, you can [inaudible], you know, you can do whatever really to stay alive. But I had to stay clean.

 

[00:28:56] Melissa Fleming

You also came close to the effects of terrorism. In Italy, I guess. And also, in the US with 9/11.

 

[00:29:04] Laura Dolci

Yeah, I was there. We were there.

 

[00:29:06] Melissa Fleming

You were there in New York?

 

[00:29:08] Laura Dolci

Yeah, in New York.

 

[00:29:09] Melissa Fleming

And what was your experience?

 

[00:29:12] Laura Dolci

Yeah. This terrorism somehow - and I only realized it later - had been kind of playing with me on and off. Because, as I said, I grew up in this border area and we did have terrorism linked to the separatist movements there. So, and then, you know, I was also born in a country that in the 70s was hit very much by terrorism - Italy.

And then, yes 9/11. Yeah. We were in New York, and I had left the house before Jean-S¨¦lim. So, by the time I came to the UN headquarters, the first plane had already hit. There were all these sirens. And then I called Jean-S¨¦lim on the phone, but the lines had already gone a bit cuckoo that morning in New York, so I couldn't reach him. You know, there are these TV sets in headquarters and so the news was live. And so, I was standing there and that's the moment when the hit, the second plane. But it was very surreal because it was a few miles down and we were watching it on TV. And then there was a lot of screams going on. And in that crowd, at a certain point, I felt this big hand on my shoulder and that was Jean-S¨¦lim. So, yeah. So, it was... But it was so weird. We were in what we thought was a safe place after years in the field, and there was this huge mass grave at the end of the island, so...

 

[00:30:50] Melissa Fleming

Terrifying.

 

[00:30:53] Laura Dolci

Yeah. So yeah, terrorism had hit before, but I was not... Nobody's prepared for that. And it's brutal. It's really brutal and everything is brutal. Any crime but terrorism, I think, as a victim quite immediately you realize that, in fact, you are not the target. I mean, you are the target, but the intent of the terrorist transcends the victim. I mean, what they target is an institution or, I don't know, an organization or a society or a way of living. They are not really targeting you for who you are or because there is a direct link between the criminal and yourself. So that senselessness, lack of sense... Senselessness is very strong when it comes to terrorism. It is I think for any victim but...

 

[00:32:02] Melissa Fleming

Does it make it harder for you to...

 

[00:32:04] Laura Dolci

It's very, it's really very hard. I mean I don't think it's easy for any victim.

 

[00:32:09] Melissa Fleming

I guess 'accept' is the wrong word or to...

 

[00:32:11] Laura Dolci

No. But in the face of terrorism, you realize that the 22 that died on that day, maybe S¨¦rgio Vieira de Mello was targeted, but I'm not even sure. I mean, there could have been another 22. I mean, what was targeted was that building with the UN flag on top. And whether you are at the end of the corridor or you just moved out to grab a coffee, I mean, it could have been another 22.

 

[00:32:40] Melissa Fleming

Did you ever get any answers why and who?

 

[00:32:44] Laura Dolci

Hardly. Hardly. It doesn't happen with terrorism only. But I mean, that's in the book I wrote. I think the impracticability, how I called it, of justice. I mean, criminal justice in the case of terrorism - particularly, the terrorism that we have these days, which is transborder mass attacks, different nationalities in the context of, you know, amongst the victims and different nationalities, very often amongst the perpetrators... And maybe it happens in another country. To really see terrorists... And then also terrorists quite often either wanting to die in the actual act. I mean, that was a kamikaze attack. So, you know, basically the possibility for a victim of terrorism to really find herself or himself in a court of justice is very reduced despite the magnitude of the event. It's not an ordinary crime. Right?

 

[00:33:55] Melissa Fleming

What you did get is a memorial here. And we're here in Geneva at UN headquarters. And I believe the first ceremony was in 2004. Can you describe that and what it was like.

 

 

[00:34:11] Laura Dolci

Yeah, I think I wasn't alone. I think there was a number of us, and we still are in contact. I think we felt very strongly that we had to keep the memory alive. But not necessarily just for, of course, remembering them. They were exceptional human beings and civil servants. But it is also the memory of the Organization. So now we have World Humanitarian Day that is marked on the 19th of August. For us, for me, this has been very important. I think we should be proud of our history and not hide it away. And it's also a way to pass it on to the other generations.

 

[00:34:57] Melissa Fleming

I mean, I know this was incredibly, incredibly difficult for you all these years. And you had your son. And he was growing up without his father. How has it been for him?

 

[00:35:15] Laura Dolci

Well, I always consider myself lucky in the sense that I think he's great young being, and he was since he was born. So, he... You know, we are born with a character, right? And so apart from the colours of our eyes he takes a lot of genes from his father. In fact, he's very much of a photocopy also physically. But he has a great personality. And I think in the family we tried very much to... Yes, to see the glass always half full rather than half empty and support one another. So yes, this young man is now opening his wings and he's now 21. So, he's in his own life.

I think what has been difficult and now that we have the world so much pestered with violence is just, I can tell you that growing up or growing out of violence is not easy. I mean, I was lucky because I managed to grow our family in a peaceful context where I could say that what happened to his father was in a specific environment and it wouldn't happen to us. But I always think of these mothers, these other women in my same situation where not only you are hit once, but you are in a continuous volatile situation.

And I'm not sure there, you know, how much resilience one can pull out. Because in terms of really making sure that the new generation is not about revenge and is not about, you know, intergenerational trauma, it really requires a lot of efforts. And because at the end of the day, a trauma like this stays in a family for a minimum, two generations. I mean, you know, his own children will not know his grandfather. A trauma to get out takes two generations. So, if the next generations are still, you know, impacted by violence, I mean, it's really a chain that at a certain point has to stop.

And so, when I'm reading the news about others, it's as I said, that's why consider myself ultimately lucky because I don't know. It really... You need to... You know, the transmission of values, you need to work on it. When you tell your son... You know, my son was 18 months old when, you know, he started to put, you know, all the sentences together. And one of the first things that I had to tell him was, 'Your father is dead, and your father was killed.' And, you know, the weight of that word in a family is big. And how you make sure that the next generation can still believe in, you know, in justice, in mediation, in respect, in resolving tensions and conflicts, which can happen also in the daily life through peaceful means and not other means. And so, yeah. So that moral compass is very hard to really translate.

 

[00:38:51] Melissa Fleming

I mean, I wonder... You continued in the profession of human rights and dealing with trauma and...

 

[00:39:00] Laura Dolci

Yeah.

 

[00:39:01] Melissa Fleming

And people who are suffering from the worst.

 

[00:39:05] Laura Dolci

Yeah.

 

[00:39:06] Melissa Fleming

Of humanity and abuses. Wasn't that difficult to deal with on top of all the trauma and personal tragedy that you suffered?

 

 

[00:39:15] Laura Dolci

Yes. And I have to say that sometimes I... It's a bit like doctors, no? You can't always be in a full empathy mode. But at the same time, meeting with victims and those defending the cause of human rights has really helped me. I mean, as I said, in the end, I ended up writing a book on victims of terrorism on which there's really hardly any books.

 

[00:39:49] Melissa Fleming

What is the name of your book?

 

[00:39:52] Laura Dolci

It's 'A Victimless Crime?' with a question mark. Because, you know, the argument is that we don't have a convention that defines terrorism as, you know. I mean, it's been, you know, in gestation with the UN for many decades, but we don't have it. So, the definitions around terrorism are still kind of [inaudible], but the number of victims of terrorism grows. And I just happen to be one of them. And so, I basically researched and tried to make a case basically for more assistance and recognition of victims of terrorism.

 

[00:40:28] Melissa Fleming

But you have managed to heal in some ways. You've remarried.

 

[00:40:36] Laura Dolci

Yes, because life gives and takes, but gives. So, and I think, yeah... We have one life. And no, I spent the first years of my son's childhood by myself. I mean really surrounded by my family. And as I said, we... And with Jean-S¨¦lim, we had just married. We didn't even manage to celebrate the first marriage anniversary. So, yeah, it was too brutal. It's as if they had taken away a life sustaining organ. So, no, I had to deal with myself, my family, and... But then, yes, you go on. And if you know, you realize that the heart is big, and it can contain a lot of love. And more love can be added and so, yes, I consider myself lucky. Always.

 

[00:41:39] Melissa Fleming

You have a wonderful husband too.

 

[00:41:41] Laura Dolci

Yes. No, I consider myself lucky. And it's a nice life trajectory. And so, I managed also to put next to our son, especially in the years in which he was turning into a young adult, a very nice additional father on Earth. In fact, he calls him the father on Earth.

 

[00:42:05] Melissa Fleming

Really?

 

[00:42:07] Laura Dolci

Yeah, so...

 

[00:42:09] Melissa Fleming

Mattia-S¨¦lim calls him...

 

[00:42:11] Laura Dolci

Yeah. There is a father on Earth, and there is a father... The father is in the sky. Yeah.

 

[00:42:17] Melissa Fleming

What these days is keeping you awake at night?

 

[00:42:26] Laura Dolci

I'm very worried about climate change. And I'm very worried about climate change, thinking about what our children are now going to face and whether we are really preparing ourselves. And also seeing that so much time and energy and lives are wasted because, you know, the world leaders, instead of sitting down at a table and really looking at these huge existential issues together... And our young generation, I mean, they are committed. They don't want to live in a world that is going to be extinguished.

 

[00:43:14] Melissa Fleming

Laura, thank you so much for joining me.

 

[00:43:16] Laura Dolci

Thank you so much for having invited me. Well, you make me feel comfortable. It's like being in a... Yeah, it's like being in a late evening. It was only a glass of wine missing, but...

 

[00:43:27] Melissa Fleming

We didn't have a glass of wine.

 

[00:43:28] Laura Dolci

I felt like it was a safe place to talk, so¡­

 

[00:43:30] Melissa Fleming

It is a safe place to talk and I really, really admire your strength and your courage and what you have made out of your tragedy. It helps others to understand.

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people to find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Adam Paylor, Josie Le Blond, and my colleagues at the UN: Katerina Kitidi, Roberta Politi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova, Anzhelika Devis, and Carlos Macias. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.