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Ramiz Alakbarov 00:00

The children of Afghanistan, they¡¯re amazing. I remember going to the Giyan during the earthquake and just seeing the children, who have lost all of the households, and the families and everything. Any you know, you go there, you bring food, you bring assistance, and yet you feel so small. It¡¯s not just food and assistance you need to give these children. You need to give them life.  

 

Melissa Fleming 00:34

From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. My guest this week is Ramiz Alakbarov, the outgoing Deputy Special Representative for Afghanistan and it's UN Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator. If I can just ask you Ramiz, if you close your eyes, what do you think of and what do you see when you think of Afghanistan?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 01:08

You know, thank you, Melissa for inviting me. First thing, which comes to my eyes, all these are children, women, people. Sounds, they're different, you know. Some of the sounds of the peace because, you know, it's nice place when you're staying in the garden. In the morning, you wake up and you hear the birds, but also so much sounds of war and explosions. And seeing a lot of poverty, misery. People really having nothing deep, deep in the mountains. I probably have visited most of the country. In the years which have followed the fall of Kabul, we had a far greater access than ever before. So, we could go places we never went before and what you see there is on one hand, a pristine nature, untouched in some places. And in other places, you see devastation, because of the environmental degradation and drought. And everywhere you just see misery and poverty.

 

Melissa Fleming 02:23

What does that look like, the misery and poverty?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 02:26

It looks like you go to someone's house and the house is just something made out of clay. There's nothing inside, maybe an old rug. You have seven, eight, ten children next to a small pot of some beans with water, trying to eat it. Very little things in general. Nothing of what we know in the modern world. Nearest road - 300 kilometres away. No source of clean water, no phone connection, no internet. Nothing.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 03:13

How would you describe the spirit of the people who are living under those conditions?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 03:18

You know, they're amazing people. People of Afghanistan are amazing people. And interestingly enough, even you go to a remote place, you find some who actually do speak English and some other languages. They adore education, they appreciate education. The first thing they would ask for is actually, ¡®Give us some education opportunities.¡¯ Before they would ask for food or medicine or anything. And it's been so consistent that I even asked them a question. I said, ¡®Why are you always asking for education?¡¯ I asked community elders. And I consistently heard the same answer. They said, ¡®Look around, what do you see here? Nothing.¡¯ I said, ¡®That's exactly what it is.¡¯ ¡®We may ask for food, we may ask for medicine, but it's not going to solve our problem. If we're going to get some of us educated, maybe we'll have better ideas what to do. And then we can get out of this situation.¡¯

 

Melissa Fleming 04:13

You were there at a hugely challenging period when the Taliban took over in August 2021.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 04:20

So, I was there through the entire period. I was there to witness the takeover of Kabul, and the partial evacuation which has ensued for UN, while a number of agencies and colleagues have remained in the country, together with me. And also, we were there for through this entire period, including Taliban taking over the palace, assuming control of the city, the chaos which had ensued around the airport, the evacuations of the embassies, then everything which followed after that. Interestingly enough, people were running to the airport, and we were running away from the airport. We actually were trying to send more aid to the hospitals, to the clinics, make, sustain everything that was going on. Of course, the attention was on a few 100,000 people who were escaping through the airport, but that there was 40 million people left behind. So, I remember also deploying some of our teams to rescue children who were abandoned at the airport that time. Because some children were just lost hours there, abandoned. Just left at the airport. So nearly 100 children were rescued in that period from that airport. And we were already distributing health supplies to the hospitals within 48 hours of the fall of Kabul.

 

Melissa Fleming 05:57

So, the UN wasn't thinking of leaving, but was thinking of staying and helping.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 06:03

Yeah. Of course, it was a very difficult decision because we didn't have any guarantee. We didn't have any security guarantee. It was probably about a week after the fall of Kabul that I have seen the first de facto authority official who offered us security guarantees on behalf of the de facto authorities, which I accepted.

 

Melissa Fleming 06:30

Describe the security situation. I think we all recall those images, but mostly, as you said, they were focused on the airport and the mayhem there. But what was it like for you leading the humanitarian operation?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 06:44

The most difficult time was probably the first 48 hours, particularly then the Pul-e-Charkhi Prison was run over, and a lot of criminal elements were moving towards the UN compound on the Jalalabad Road. And at that time, the former republican authorities and their military personnel had abandoned their posts protecting the compound of the UN and UN premises. We just had our own internal security to provide that. And then you have huge crowds of looters, and those who are encroaching on your compound. You obviously have some doubts how seriously you can defend. We were lucky to have the strong support of the community where we were located. So, they did provide the required support at that time.

And then within 48 hours, things became a little clearer. And we were able to restore at least protection within the compound. And within 48 hours, we started to authorize missions out on a case-by-case basis. This was again to provide essential health services. Basically, to release supplies to the hospitals, to make sure that displaced are getting food assistance and things like that. And within one month, we actually were running a full-blown humanitarian operation. Interestingly enough, most of it by road because the entire air fleet which we had - and we had quite a massive air fleet before the fall of Kabul. As you remember those scenes at the airport, the crowds running over, so they basically went and tampered with all of our aircraft. Whatever was there in the airport, all of it was not airworthy anymore, it had to be taken out. And then obviously, because there was no more any official protection of that airport, there was no security guarantees, there was no air traffic control. So, everything became so much more expensive, including war risk insurances. And that's when we started to use the roads. So, within one month, we had an ability to go to more than 400 districts by road.

 

Melissa Fleming 09:08

You mentioned that you also saved 100 children who were lost in the mayhem at the airport. I remember interviewing a UNICEF colleague, Sam Mort, for this podcast. And she spoke of the children who came into the compound until their families could be relocated. Did you meet any of the children?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 09:30

Yes, of course.

 

Melissa Fleming 09:31

What was that like for you?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 09:33

It was very, very emotional. Some of them lost their families. And they were talking things which kids talk. They were talking about stars, playing some¡­ One of them was talking about trying to become spaceman. And you know, children live in a dream world. Some of them were shocked and you know, trying to interview them¡­ And I must admit our colleagues who have been taking, shouldering that work, who talked to them through, trying to find out where they come from, who are their parents. And little by little to get the information so they could get in touch with relatives. But children of Afghanistan - they're amazing. These are beautiful, very curious, willing to study, willing to develop, and yet so limited in the scope of opportunities which they can have.

I remember going to the Giyan during the earthquake and just seeing the children who have lost all of households and the families and everything. And you know, you go there, you bring food, you bring assistance, and yet, you feel so small. It's not just food and assistance you need to give these children. You need to give them life, a life of full opportunities. And you know, you go there, you hug them, you give them something. You realize that the whatever you've given is not going to replace mother, father. You know, school, whole life of dignity and being fulfilled of opportunities. So, I think we're so far from where we need to go to make the difference.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 11:36

And especially the Taliban takeover, you know, changed things almost overnight for women and girls. You mentioned education for the children. This specifically hit girls the hardest. Secondary education was banned, university education banned. When you think about your frustration that you already had - that you weren't able to help these children enough, and that what you were saying before about the importance of education, even outsize importance for Afghans - how did this affect you?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 12:15

Well, first of all, I came to this job from working for the women's rights movement for more than a quarter of a century. Coming to Afghanistan and trying to deal with a situation where women are denied basics is very challenging, and I would say, something unsettling. At UN, we should never be allowed to put at contradiction the issue of humanitarian imperative and our responsibility to protect and help the people on one hand, and on another hand with our responsibility to act in a manner which safeguards women's rights and does not make any uncomfortable compromises about them.

Now, once you look at the Taliban, at the core of that movement, or the ideology, and you understand that for them, at least for the leadership of that group, the most important thing is to drive the ideology. And that ideology does not recognize any type of Western education. And that ideology does not accord women with the rights which are normally accorded to them in Islam. It's actually quite I would say, sectarian, very limited interpretation of this religion, to which I belong myself, which rest of the Islamic world does not recognize.

So, you're dealing with this, if you wish, ideology, which is being put at a central level. And then since the Hanafi jurisprudence recognizes traditional tribal culture elements as part of the legal framework, which exists along with Sharia and Hadith and everything else, there is a variety allowed for the provinces. So, for instance, in the North, the things are much more open than in the South, and mixed in the East and in the Southwest, and things like that. So, you're dealing in a place, in the space, where the at the central level, you have very strict interpretation of things. And things are possible in various geographical areas. And you don't have any clear written laws. The instructions come in form of a voicemail through WhatsApp. How would you operate in that manner? So, you're constantly making an operational decision based on, you know, sets of values and principles, which is¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 15:27

So, that's what guided you.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 15:29

Yes.

 

Melissa Fleming 15:30

It must have been very frustrating given your background. You¡¯re a medical doctor too, I understand. And you're seeing very hard, hard-worked rights of women over the years just disappear overnight. How did that make you feel?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 15:49

Terrible. You know, 20 some years ago, I joined our relief operation in Afghanistan. At that time, we fundraised for construction of the Ministry of Women¡¯s Affairs, which is now converted into the PVPV, which is a ministry for prevention of vice and promotion of virtue. How would you think that makes one feel?

 

Melissa Fleming 16:20

So, you were behind the creation of the Ministry for Women's Affairs that was working for women's rights.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 16:26

For two decades.

 

Melissa Fleming 16:28

And now it is¡­

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 16:29

And now it is the ministry which is actually restricting those rights. And the most, if you wish, difficult part of it is that they're now recruiting women who are supposed to be working there to promote exactly those type of restrictive laws. And that it's extremely difficult. Having said this, the 20 plus years of this investment, which was made in Afghanistan definitely didn't pass away just like that. You have very vibrant civil society, have very active women, women's movement, and very active women's organizations, and they are quite numerous, and they are operating now. So, if the image is that it's all gone, and none of it is possible, and everybody is at home, and veiled and unable to do something, that's the wrong image. That's not true. Many things have been officially disallowed. There are barriers, but there is also ways of working.

So, how does it make me feel? Not hopeless. To some extent, angry, because I think we worked for decades, we should never walk away from what we did. And¡­ But also, I have faith. I have faith in Afghanistan and the right choice which people will make. My only issue with this whole thing is, Melissa, we somehow have very little patience. Someone thought the 20 years was enough. And in 20 years, there was not sufficient progress. Now, I always refer to places like Singapore, Asian Tigers. I talk about Korea. I talk about Viet Nam and other places. How many years took those countries in the 20th century to make a transition from post-war, post-colonial context to a current level of development? The least is we are talking about 40 plus years in Singapore from preindustrial or industrialized stage. So, why did we expect that things will happen faster in Afghanistan within 20 years, given that overall context of the development is so low, and most of the Afghan villages are living in the 16th century.

 

Melissa Fleming 18:59

But in a way, I'm hearing a little bit of hopeful¡­ Or hope that this could be a temporary period, and the resilience of the Afghan people is still there.

 

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 19:14

Yes, it is. And fundamentally, when you talk to the Taliban ranks and rank and file, you clearly see that most of that movement, which is quite young, doesn't own up to this ideology. This ideology belongs to the leadership of that movement. And that ideology is all what they have as they actually have nothing else to offer. I regret to say that in the period, which I was there, I failed to obtain from the fact of what is any articulated social development plan. I even offered to help to come up with some of those ideas. And at the beginning, particularly, telling them that, ¡®What are your plans? What are you going to offer to your people in terms of health, in terms of education, in terms of social development, and so forth?¡¯ So, with the exception maybe of some [inaudible] to articulate some of it in the health sector - which is again, very limited - we haven't seen anything. So, it looks like for the leadership of the movement it is so critical to cling to these, I would say backward interpretations, because this is the core of the political [inaudible] or if there is any. But beyond it there is no real offer.

 

Melissa Fleming 20:44

Do you have any regrets about leaving Afghanistan at this time?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 20:48

I don't. I think I did what I could, Melissa. Within the last three years, I gave it best I had in my mind and in my heart. I'm forever grateful for this group of colleagues who took that decision to stay with me in August of 2021 there. When we gathered to take this decision, we had three sets of questions. First, are we safe? Second is, what is going to happen if we¡¯re going to leave? And so, the answer to the first question is we're not safe. But we don't know. Maybe it can just work. Second is if you're going to leave, millions are going to die. And we simply can't leave. And the third one was, what can we do right away to respond to that situation? And I think we have done that. We kept against all the odds, the UN system there. We kept the engagement. Engagement doesn't mean recognition. It means engaging, it means talking is very important. As far as I'm concerned, three years were enough to provide my [inaudible] to it. So, someone else with a fresh eye can come in and do more.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 22:11

Well, before you were posted to Afghanistan you served in many other difficult areas, including Haiti and South Sudan. What makes you go to places that most people would run from?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 22:25

I guess a sense of duty. And I like to think of myself as someone who wants to be useful. I want to be useful. And I genuinely joined this organization in 1995¡­ I keep saying, you know, for me back in those years, I felt that, ¡®Oh, it's a cool thing. You work for UN, right?¡¯ It's like you're a developmental adventurist. It¡¯s a cool way of seeing the world. Very quickly, you realize here that you're in for an idea. And that idea requires dedication. You have to participate. You have to be a part of it. So, the reason I go to these places is I want to help. And I don't think by sitting just in more comfortable places, we challenge ourselves enough. That it's also good to be out of that context to reevaluate and compare. But definitely it is same, Haiti going there after the earthquake. I felt we did something for the people. It now breaks my heart to see where Haiti is. Afghanistan needed more than 20 years. Haiti may need longer. So, we need a sustained engagement based on our, on my understanding, that social change doesn't happen that often. Of course, you can go back and deduct this from historic examples and multiply them by the technology and everything, but you still need decades. So, we should not be in a rush to see the changes so quickly sometimes as we want.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:26

You actually grew up during the Cold War in Azerbaijan.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 24:32

Yes.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:33

And then trained as a medical doctor. I mean, it would potentially have been challenging enough to serve in your country, but maybe just a bit about what it was like to grow up in Azerbaijan during that period.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 24:47

You know, my older brother who is not with us anymore, he was one of the founders of the national resistance movement in my country, and as a young student, I joined the protests. I remember staying nights for weeks in, you know, in the main Freedom Square, and you know, protesting, organizing student movements. You know, going to Moscow and organizing.

 

Melissa Fleming 25:21
 
That was dangerous.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 25:23

Right, but manifestations with posters, we were protesting in front of the parliament at that time. One thing which was very important for us then - which I always tell to everyone where I go and work in various parts of the world - is that for us then it was very important to know that the world knows that we are protesting. That world knows that there are people who are standing for something right, for something good. And it was very important for us to know that we're heard.

I remember standing there with a little radio at night and trying to see whether you could get anything on shortwave from Europe or elsewhere in the world, and how they're seeing. So, people in the world need to know that there is a larger freedom, that there are human rights, that there is international law. That it is not anymore a place where just because you have a force, or you have a gun, you can go and do what you want. So, I carry these memories from 80s and early 90s into today. And you know, I'm talking about ¡®86, ¡®87, ¡®88, ¡®89, very turbulent years. I carry this as a memory, how important it is, the people who are putting themselves out, to know they're not alone in this world. And UN is an impartial and independent body, which personifies that set of values for the people.

 

Melissa Fleming 27:28

What prompted you¡­ Again, you're young, fresh out of medical school, and you decided to go and join the UN? What prompted you to do that?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 27:38

Oh, you know, I always wanted to¡­ I was very excited in my younger years. I grew up with my grandparents. They were biologists and scientists. And they had a lot of books about Asia and Africa. And I grew up reading about all these countries and about developmental challenges. So, I actually wanted to go and help. And I tried to go to the¡­ At that time, in former Soviet Union, there was this Moscow Institute of International Relations. I was supposed to be a student there. I even was conditionally accepted. But I had to prove that I would be a loyal member of the Communist Party, and I had to accomplish my military service, whatever else. So, those conditions unfortunately could not have been met. I was too young. And in the meantime, the war was breaking loose in my part of the world. Things were getting difficult. And so, I decided to be a doctor instead of being an international development specialist. However, a few years later, it happened then, during the Karabakh war, UN was planning the first integrated mission there. And I actually joined that prototype as a medical doctor first.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 29:18

What does your family think about the work you do?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 29:21

I think they support me. They feel at times maybe that I don't spend that much time with them as I should have. But I'm very blessed to have everybody's understanding and support.

 

Melissa Fleming 29:40

You have children?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 29:41

Yes, I have one son. He's over thirty. And interesting thing to mention about my family was when I was in Afghanistan. And these edicts against women's rights started to come out. Every single female member of my family, everybody, including the elder woman, and the younger ones, they called me, and they said, ¡®Don't you dare to trade?¡¯ I said, ¡®What do you mean?¡¯ They said, ¡®This is not about just education of girls. This is about all rights of all women. And you know, if you ever compromise on anything of this, we will denounce you.¡¯ And I said, ¡®Well, but why would you think that I would do anything like that?¡¯

 

Melissa Fleming 30:30

They said they would denounce you.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 30:31

Yes. And I think it was a very strong support I also received from them in terms of strengthening my thinking of¡­ Whatever I said during that period of time is all on record. I've been extremely clear to Taliban about this. They're going nowhere with these edicts. There's no way you can take society to mediaeval times. But what was interesting is that even then they said, ¡®Even if that brings danger to you and to your life.¡¯ That¡¯s what the women in my family told me, ¡®You have no right to say anything but the truth.¡¯ And I stick to that.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:12

I like the women in your family. These days, what is keeping you awake at night?

 

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 31:24

We've seen some coverages from Afghanistan about people selling their organs. You know, this¡­You've seen some of this, right? Some of those images of young girls and they lift like that a little bit, and you could see the cut.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:45

The scar.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 31:46

Yeah. I think about this often. I think about people who are forced to sell their children into marriage or some sort of an arrangement. I¡¯m afraid that future or this planet, of this world cannot be anymore secured without providing a common minimum living and developmental standard to all people of this planet. What makes a person secure, safe, what doesn't turn someone to a negative coping strategy - including joining a terrorist movement, including radicalization - is not just an availability of a high energy biscuit. I kept referring to that throughout my assignment in Afghanistan that imagine someone sitting under plastic sheeting material and munching on a high energy biscuit and waiting another 20 years. That's not possible.

And that's not to discount the importance of the shelter, provisional shelter and of high energy biscuits, which will save your life today. But the fact is that if you don't have education, if you don't have health services, if you don't have jobs, if you don't have income, you will run somewhere. You will join a radical movement. You will eventually end up selling children and organs, and God knows what else will happen. So, we must make this minimum developmental standard something universal. And until we reach that point, we won't be able to make the difference. And that¡¯s what keeps me awake at night.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:02

So, when you have time to relax, what do you do? Where do you go?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 34:08

Well, I didn't have any time to relax. Except of course, you try to keep yourself running by some physical exercise and trying to eat healthy and drink more water. But I do love fishing. And I do play tennis when I normally have a chance to do so. So, I do hope that, you know, I have more opportunities to spend time doing those type of things. I also like gardening, believe it or not. So, I do hope to avail myself of some alternative opportunities to do those things.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:51

Very therapeutic.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 34:52

Absolutely.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:53
 
And these are the things maybe that keep you going because, you know, you insert yourself over and over again in very stressful situations. What keeps you going?

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 35:03

You know, I believe we are the last, best hope that humanity has. And we have to stand for it. For a large proportion of population in the world, we represent, as I tried to say before, this larger world of justice, the righteous place, the moral compass, if you wish. We must keep that. If it's there no more, billions of people will have no hope. And you can take many things from people, but you can't take away hope from them. So, we have to be there basically to create a better world.

 

Melissa Fleming 35:55

Ramiz, thank you very much.

 

Ramiz Alakbarov 35:57

Thank you so much for having me. Thank you

 

Melissa Fleming 36:01

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. On Twitter, we¡¯re and I'm . Do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Jen Thomas, Adam Paylor, to my colleagues at the UN: Roberta Politi, Julia Hagel, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. And the team at the UN studio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.