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Melissa Fleming 00:00

If you want to know why the UN matters, talk to my colleague Denise Brown. She has one of the most difficult and challenging positions in the UN right now. As Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator in Ukraine, she is the UN's top official there. She's also responsible for delivering crucial supplies to the victims of this horrible war. She's a remarkable person, and I'm proud to work with her.

 

Denise Brown 00:26

Despite all the failings of the UN, and there are many, we can deliver in the most difficult circumstances. With a lot of supplies. Supplies that make a difference, with support that makes a difference, with presence that makes a difference. So that's what keeps me going. Because we have that opportunity, that potential, those resources, that experience. We make a difference.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 01:06

From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. Welcome to Awake at Night. Denise, people's lives have changed forever by the war in Ukraine. And you yourself have come under bombardment in Kyiv. What do you have to do when you hear air sirens there?

 

Denise Brown 01:35

Different things, I guess. First of all, is to collect yourself as a person. There are sirens. They are really loud, and they go on for a long time. And they, for all of us, generate a physical reaction, an emotional reaction. For me, it doesn't last very long. But it's always kind of a tense couple of seconds. What do I do? Do I go to the bunker? Do I have time to go to the bunker? Do I just go in the hallway, which is where there's no glass and it's protected? What am I going to do with all my meetings, you know? It then becomes practical. So, there's different reactions at different moments to those air sirens. And also, if I hear it at midnight, I usually just pull the covers over my head and say, ¡®Well, too bad. I¡¯m not getting out of my bed when it¡¯s -10.¡¯

 

Melissa Fleming 02:27

If you had to get out of your bed and it¡¯s -10, what would that entail? Where would you go? Where's the nearest bunker?

 

Denise Brown 02:33

Well, the nearest bunker is down the street. So, I'd need to get dressed, -10. Put on all my layers. Five minutes down the road and into the bunker. Which is a bunker, so it's dark. It's underground. They've made it as friendly as possible, but not a place you want to be alone at midnight for sure.

 

Melissa Fleming 02:57

But you've had to go there many times.

 

Denise Brown 02:59

Many times. In fact, we've calculated that over the past 11 months, we would have spent the equivalent of one month in the bunker. Yes.

 

Melissa Fleming 03:08

I think I've seen images of you carrying out meetings there and just moving on.

 

Denise Brown 03:14

Yes. Exactly. Humanitarian country team, UN country team, interviews, the noon briefing in New York. All kinds of...

 

Melissa Fleming 03:22

So, you are connected down there.

 

Denise Brown 03:23

We are connected.

 

Melissa Fleming 03:24

To the Internet.

 

Denise Brown 03:25

We are connected.

 

Melissa Fleming 03:26

So, when you're in there¡­ I mean, you're also in your role responsible for the colleagues too.

 

 

Denise Brown 03:33

Yes.

 

Melissa Fleming 03:34

So, it's probably, I mean¡­ So, the feelings that you describe. But then are you taking on the other emotions that I'm sure vary from fear to, I don't know, a whole range of the other colleagues? How would you describe that?

 

Denise Brown 03:53

Yes. So, I have over my head constantly the more than 2600 staff we have there, 60% of whom are Ukrainian, and their safety. And when it's eight o'clock in the morning, and the siren goes off, then many people are in the metro. So, if we launch a headcount, we actually can't find everyone because they're down way deep down in the bowels of Kyiv in the metro. And so, there's always that anxiety. So, there's, you know, your reaction as a person, and your reaction as the person who's responsible for the safety and security of everyone. And I'm always extremely anxious, although I never say that until every single person is accounted for. And sometimes that can take some time. And when we do it nationwide, then we have to go, you know, it's Kyiv, it's Odesa, it¡¯s Dnipro, it¡¯s Kharkiv, it's Vinnytsia, it's Lviv. And making sure that we know where everybody is. So, yeah.

 

Melissa Fleming 04:56

So, those are all the places you and colleagues are based.

 

Denise Brown 04:59

Absolutely.

 

Melissa Fleming 05:00

And so, you're keeping track of when missiles are falling in where.

 

Denise Brown 05:08

And they're falling almost every day, actually. So, we're pretty good at the headcounts now as we have to do them a couple times a week. So, we've got it down packed. But it's extremely important for me to know where everybody is. And we really had to drill it into everyone. And we would do¡­ Before the 10th of October when the first strikes landed right in the centre of Kyiv, I was making everyone do it once a week just as a practice, so that we could figure out where the difficulties were. So, you're stuck in the metro. And sometimes the Internet goes down. So then how do you accommodate for your team, or people? Some were with the family, our national staff. So, there's all kinds of elements to be worried about. But listen, now it's weekly. So, we've gotten really good at it.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 05:58

So, on one hand, you're trying to protect yourself and your teams, on the other hand you're trying to deliver.

 

Denise Brown 06:06

Yeah. And, of course, the intensification of the war, the missiles falling, slows us down but doesn¡¯t stop us. I have to say the determination of the humanitarian community, also of the UN agencies, our deliveries along the front line, which are very difficult, very stressful for the teams that go, require huge amounts of planning. So, it doesn¡¯t stop us. And that¡¯s a testament to the courage and determination and experience of the people we have there. But yeah, can slow us down for sure.

 

Melissa Fleming 06:45

And you know, how I mean¡­ I think people hear all the time about all kinds of mobilization. Mostly, they hear about weapons delivery. What is the UN doing and how is it helping in Ukraine?

 

Denise Brown 07:00

The UN is saving lives in Ukraine. And our winterization - whose sole objective was to avoid people freezing or starving to death in the small rural communities - that was absolutely a major priority when I arrived in August. And so, it was blazing hot in Kyiv, and we're focused on the winter. So, it was a bit surreal sometimes.

 

Melissa Fleming 07:24

And at that point, you didn't know that the energy infrastructure was going to be targeted.

 

Denise Brown 07:28

Exactly. That didn't start until the 10th of October, and then it just all went down downhill. And we know that millions of Ukrainians live without regular access to electricity, water, and heating, because in Ukraine, it's all connected. And there has been mild winter. But in some places, it was -15. It was not so mild. So, we really focused on this. And again, those front-line deliveries, their communities. And you know, hundreds of thousands of people who remained within a couple of kilometres from the front line. And they¡­

When I was in Orikhiv, which is in Zaporizhzhia on the 6th of January, you know, it gets so loud. And the colleagues also tell me this. It gets so loud, the strikes, that you can't hear each other speak. And then you're counting. And it's one, two, and then up to 20. And then up to 30. For the couple of hours, we're on the ground. And we didn't see a lot of people because the people are spending most of the time in the bunkers. They come out when the shelling stops. And then when the shelling stops, the market will open quickly. And so, people will come, get their provisions, check on each other and then go back down into the bunker. So, these are the people we are supporting.

And, you know, our first trip into Kherson city three days after it was, you know, retaken by the Ukrainian military, that was wild. It was what the Ukrainians needed to see. That the UN is prepared to deliver in the most difficult of circumstances.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 09:08

And what did you bring them?

 

Denise Brown 09:10

We brought the medical supplies. We brought them shelter kits. We brought them food. We brought them hygiene kits. We brought tarpaulins. That was the first delivery. We're not irresponsible. We mitigate the risks. We know where we're going. We talk to the military before we go. But it was important to show that the UN is not just about meetings and votes in the General Assembly, that it is actual people doing some really hard stuff in a really difficult situation. And yeah, that¡¯s what we do.

 

Melissa Fleming 09:46

So, you're travelling into these areas of hot conflict sometimes. And are you ever able to speak to people and ask them, ¡®Why are you staying?¡¯

 

Denise Brown 09:59

We do. And I make sure that I go on a number of these trips, because I can't ask colleagues to go if I'm not prepared to go myself. So normally every two weeks, I jump on the convoy and off we go. And we spend as much time as possible talking to people that we see walking along the street or who come to us, because, you know, it's not often that they have visitors. Typically, it's elderly people. These are people who are born in that community, who were raised in that community, who are married in that community, have their children, their farms, their homes, their whole life there. And they're not prepared to leave it behind, because they don't think they'll come back. So, we hear a lot of that, a lot of the stories. And we hear the stories of the mayor, this wonderful mayor, woman, Kherson city. Or the woman mayor of Orikhiv. All these fantastic women who stayed behind to take care of the community. So, we have a wonderful exchange. But it's always, yes, quite stressful for all of us. And very intense conversations for the time that we're there.

 

Melissa Fleming 11:18

Yeah, I can imagine. It must be hard to live under the fear of at any moment a rocket could fall, and it could¡­ But I guess you're probably, your thoughts are turning to those who are constantly under that fear.

 

Denise Brown 11:39

Yeah, my calculation is that the UN is not a target. So, I don't believe there will be a deliberate targeting of the UN. We use the humanitarian notification system. So, both the Ministry of Defence of Ukraine, the Ministry of Defence of Russia is informed for all of our convoys which go within 20 kilometres of the front line. But you're right. There's imprecision in these attacks. It could fall¡­ A missile could fall where it's not supposed to. Then we could be under it. It¡¯s absolutely true. But this is¡­ You know, this is part of the job with the UN, isn¡¯t it? You know, in all the places I¡¯ve ever worked there¡¯s that element of risk. And as individuals we always need to calculate what level of risk we¡¯re comfortable with. And Ukraine is asking a lot of our comfort level. So again, very brave, determined colleagues who are on the ground with me.

 

Melissa Fleming 12:36  

Was there any story from somebody you may have met in Kherson or Zaporizhzhia or one of the places where people are suffering so much right now that you can remember that stuck with you?

 

Denise Brown 12:56

It's Kherson city. I've been there five times since it was retaken in mid-November. And the constant shelling, targeting of the civilian infrastructure, of the heating systems, the electricity and suffering. And I was there¡­ It was during one of my visits in December, and it was so cold. And you can just¡­ There's a wind there that just gets into your bones. And I was with the authorities, and we went to a heating point. And he was talking to the population then he turned around said, ¡®This is Denise and she's the head of the UN in Ukraine.¡¯ And then I spoke a little bit to the people.

And then on my way out a woman¡­ There was a little girl holding her hand. She couldn¡¯t have been more than four. This beautiful little girl. You know this big furry hat on because it was so cold. And she comes up to me and says, ¡®Thank you. Thank you for everything you're doing. If I could just have a solar lamp. Could I have a solar lamp? Could you just give me a solar lamp?¡¯ And I didn't have a solar lamp. Right? We brought everything but solar lamps. And I just¡­ I always remember that because we work at scale. We're reaching a huge number of people. We're bringing in a huge number of supplies. But it's never enough. It's not always exactly what everything that people need. And I think about that. And she looked at me said, ¡®Okay. Well, thank you¡¯. And walked away with this little girl. And I thought, ¡®Where is she going? Where does she live? Where does she sleep? How does she manage on her own?¡¯ So, it¡¯s those stories. We should never congratulate ourselves ever for this work.

 

Melissa Fleming 14:51

Why do you say that?

 

Denise Brown 14:55

It¡¯s never enough.

 

Melissa Fleming 15:08

So, how do you deal with that? I see that you're actually¡­ You're getting emotional. So am I because I know that feeling. What keeps you going when you know it's never enough?

 

Denise Brown 15:32

Because despite all the failings of the UN, and there are many, we can deliver in the most difficult circumstances. With a lot of supplies. Supplies that make a difference, with support that makes a difference, with presence that makes a difference. The NGOs do a fantastic job. But the UN is a mammoth. It¡¯s a woolly mammoth and makes a difference, can make a difference if we do things in the right way. So that¡¯s what keeps me going. Because we have that opportunity, that potential, those resources, that experience. And when we put it together in the right way, and it¡¯s not always¡­ It should not always be put together in the same way. We make a difference. But we don¡¯t always make a difference. But in this case, we are.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 16:36

It's not¡­ I guess, with all the needs, and all the millions, it will never be enough. And that solar lamp.

 

Denise Brown 16:43

Yeah.

 

Melissa Fleming 16:44

Maybe for that little girl to maybe be able to read. I guess, you might have imagined that.

 

Denise Brown 16:49

Yeah, imagined that.

 

Melissa Fleming 16:50

I wonder when you see little girls like that you must also think of the children in Ukraine and how much this war must be impacting them in so many ways.

 

Denise Brown 17:06

Yes. UNICEF is doing a fantastic job with Caritas and other organizations national to set up special centres for children. And I visited many of them where children who've been traumatized by the sound of the sirens, the sound of the rockets, the strikes, or losing people in their family, can go. The challenge we have is that on that front line there are still children. Because families don't feel they can leave. We're not able to support them in the way that we should. So, we can provide children's clothes and blankets and heating systems and medical supplies, but they don't have internet. So even online schooling is not possible for them. The psychosocial support, which they desperately need, we can't provide because we only have a couple of hours on the ground. And we can't go in every day. So, I spend a lot of time talking to UNICEF, talking to national organizations, and WHO. What can we do in that setting? And the answer is - not a lot. Unfortunately, not a lot.

 
Melissa Fleming 18:28

So, the children who perhaps have gotten out are much better off.

 

Denise Brown 18:32

At least there's the opportunity for them to get the support that they need right now. But even that support, it's kind of like a blanket approach for the moment, these centres for children. But some of those children require much deeper, much longer-term support than others. And that's what needs to be identified and those children supported. But it's the ones that we can't reach which bother me the most.

 

Melissa Fleming 19:00

Because the trauma must be incredible. I mean, even you said when [you] were here in Geneva.

 

Denise Brown 19:06

Yes.

 

Melissa Fleming 19:07

And you just came out of Ukraine. I said, ¡®How does it feel to be here?¡¯ And you said, ¡®Quiet.¡¯

 

Denise Brown 19:15

Yes. The sirens are really loud. Really loud. And then the air strikes when they happen even louder. And when security is trying to teach me the difference to recognize incoming and outgoing. And when it's incoming, it's a sound and then it reverberates, right? So, then as it impacts. And so, it just seems to go on and on. It's like being in a tunnel. And we get so used to it. We think we get used to it. But what I recognize is that as soon as we come out, you feel tired. Your shoulders feel heavy, you get a headache. Because we¡¯re tense all the time. All the time. So, imagine those children, right? Because as adults we have different coping mechanisms, and we can rationalize. But those children find, I hope, different ways of coping. But I¡¯m not sure.

 

Melissa Fleming 20:11

Well, I guess you're running on adrenaline too.

 

Denise Brown 20:13

Yes.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 20:14

You were appointed to this position in Ukraine in July 2022. And you've already spent your career in some other places of terrible suffering like Afghanistan and Somalia. What made you say yes to this job?

 

Denise Brown 20:34

You know, it's difficult. When I got to Ukraine, coming from Central African Republic, it was hard to find the words. I couldn't say, ¡®I'm happy to be here.¡¯ Right? You can say that. It's a war. It's like a war. It's not a conflict. It's a war. And I didn't know what to say. Shall I say, ¡®It's an honour to be here.¡¯ Right? And in fact, in some ways, it is an honour to represent the UN in such a context where we were not terribly loved at the beginning. It was complicated. But nevertheless, that aside, how could one say no to this? To make a difference in the event of the century perhaps for us. Yeah.

 

Melissa Fleming 21:33

What is keeping you awake at night these days?

 

Denise Brown 21:40

Probably not just one thing. I tend to wake up in the middle of the night. And my children will recognize this. I have conversations with myself. And they laugh because when I'm in the car driving, they'll look over and they say, ¡®Mom, you're talking to yourself.¡¯ I'm like, ¡®Oh yeah, that's true. I'm talking to myself.¡¯ I get so lost in what's in my head that I have conversations with myself, which sounds completely crazy. It's not, it's just so many thoughts, and reflections and information that it has to be processed. And if I don't process it all, before I go to sleep, then it wakes me up at 2:00 in the morning. And then I know I'm totally done for.

At the beginning, it was making sure that the UN did the right thing in the right way on the ground. I¡¯m talking about on the ground in Ukraine. To make sure that we were there where people needed us the most. That we got people through the winter months. I had recurring thoughts of being called by the Prime Minister's Office or someone's office saying, ¡®There's a community where people are freezing to death, and you didn't help them.¡¯ I was really worried about that. Because this is a huge country. Many small rural communities. And I was like, ¡®We have to figure out how we make sure. How do we make sure? Call everybody. Call the governors. Call the mayors. Call the volunteer organizations. Make sure we know what's going on.¡¯ That was my big thought in October, November. Particularly, when it was super cold in Kyiv, -10 with snow blowing in your face. And I go home to a warm apartment.

As we come out of those winter months, it's more about the front line and making sure that we let those people know that we are paying attention, that we are delivering, that we will be there. But I have to make sure nothing happens to the staff. Right? It's like for anybody who works in a difficult setting. It's always the balance we have to find. Protecting the staff. Not going too far but going far enough. Yeah. Keeps you awake a lot.

 

Melissa Fleming 23:56

I imagine. You have three sons.

 

Denise Brown 23:59

Yes.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:00

I imagine sometimes they're awake at night thinking about their mother.

 

Denise Brown 24:03

Yes.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 24:05

How do they reach out to you? Are they constantly checking in on you?

 

Denise Brown 24:11

Constantly. So, they follow the news. And last Friday, when there were numerous air strikes in Kyiv I happened to be with a bunch of ambassadors. So, I switched off my phone. And my younger son when I turned my phone back on, he was like, ¡®Mom, look, I know you're busy, but there's air strikes. You just have to tell me you're okay. You just have to tell me and then I won't bother you.¡¯ So, yeah, they worry in a way. They didn't worry in any of the other places, right? Because it wasn't as in your face as this one is, right? Televised. You turn on the news. You know, it's a major part of the news and I was never somewhere where missiles were falling.

 

Melissa Fleming 24:54

You couldn't turn on CNN and find out what was happening in Central African Republic.

 

Denise Brown 25:01

No, you could not. So, they were protected that way. Or when I was in Somalia. When I was in Afghanistan. The risks were there, but not presented in the same way. So yeah, it's hard for them, but we are in constant contact. And I think it was the missile strikes of 10th of October. My youngest son was writing to me and saying, ¡®Are you okay? Are you okay?¡¯ And I said, ¡®Yes, I'm absolutely fine. Don't worry, I'm fine.¡¯ But then he went on Google Maps and looked at the distance between my office and the three strikes in the capital. And he wrote back and said, ¡®There's 1.2 kilometres between your office and the third strike.¡¯ And I thought, ¡®Little devil. Why are you going on¡­? Why are you checking that? I told you I was fine.¡¯ So, there are ways of checking.

 

Melissa Fleming 25:44

Where are they?

 

Denise Brown 25:45

He's in Vancouver, where I'm from. My middle son is in Nairobi setting up his own communications, video, photography business, which he loves. And my eldest son is in Frankfurt.

 

Melissa Fleming 26:00

So, on three continents.

 

Denise Brown 26:04

On three continents, but we're well connected.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 26:07

WhatsApp.

 

Denise Brown 26:08

WhatsApp keeps us connected.

 

Melissa Fleming 26:11

Just wondering, do you ever have any downtime? Do you do anything that kind of just gets your mind off of the ugliness of this war?

 

Denise Brown 26:24

No. No, I don't. It would be impossible I think for me to get my mind off the war. I'm careful. And again, my closest friends and children know that by 9:30, 10 o'clock, I'm sleeping. Secretary-General once called me at midnight. I was like, ¡®Doesn¡¯t the Secretary-General know I don't answer the phone at midnight?¡¯ I did answer the phone of course. I need that sleep.

 

Melissa Fleming 26:50

That's so important.

 

Denise Brown 26:51

And then I get up and I walk three or four kilometres. But at six o'clock in the morning when it's dark. You know, and I can just walk, but I'm thinking about my day. I'm thinking about problems.

 

Melissa Fleming 27:02

So, you walk through the city.

 

Denise Brown 27:04

I walk through the city, which sounds slightly ridiculous, but I enjoy walking through the city. It¡¯s my exercise for myself, my soul, and my mind. Yeah.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 27:18

You are from Canada. Vancouver. And you've worked in humanitarian and development for almost three decades in Africa and Asia and Haiti. Was there a moment when you were setting out when you knew this was what you wanted to do? A spark. I want to be in this line of work.

 

Denise Brown 27:40

My spark came in Afghanistan with WFP. And that was in 1998, 1999.

 

Melissa Fleming 27:46

What was going on?

 

Denise Brown 27:50

The Taliban. That was my first exposure to such a thing. How to deal with the Taliban. 1999. And then at one point they did exactly what they're doing now, which was forbade women to work. And with WFP we had set up a series of bakeries. And a number of those bakeries, I think 20 in Kabul, were run by women for women. Because women alone, widowed, etc., they had to go somewhere to get their bread. So, WFP had set that up. It was brilliant. And negotiating with those Taliban, I remember sitting with them and WFP colleagues and myself and the Taliban, explaining to them why those bakeries needed to run, to function. Or otherwise, where were these women going to go? And hoping that reason would prevail, that logic would prevail. And I was like, ¡®Well, this is very interesting, right?¡¯

 

Melissa Fleming 28:51

It didn't.

 

Denise Brown 28:52

Well, it did actually because we were allowed to keep the women-run bakeries going but you know after quite some slapping of one of our women colleagues. Because we had women working for us as well to run those bakeries. One of them was slapped. One of them was arrested. I mean, it was a horrendous, horrendous moment. But we fought and those bakeries stayed open. So¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 29:17

Why was that a spark then for you?

 

Denise Brown 29:19

Because it's worth fighting for. These things are worth fighting for. People's wellbeing in a place like Afghanistan. Women's wellbeing is worth fighting for. So, using a combination of logic and discussion and relationships and our wonderful national colleagues, we can make things happen. That was my spark. We can make things happen.

 

Melissa Fleming 29:41

It must be very distressing for you to see what's happening now with the women and girls of Afghanistan.

 

Denise Brown 29:48
 
Very distressing. They did the same thing in 1999, 2000. We should just go back and look at recent history and what they did and what they didn't correct.

 

Melissa Fleming 30:02

You were also based in Kenya and Somalia. And when you were in Somalia three of your staff were abducted and murdered. Can you tell me what happened?

 

Denise Brown 30:14

Well, I was the Deputy Country Director for WFP and we were expanding in South Central Somalia. And I spent a lot of my time there. It was before the UN moved back into Mogadishu. So, getting into Mogadishu was a big production. And we worked very hard on recruiting Somali staff, exceptional people and with great networks. And of course, we had to deal with Al-Shabaab. Otherwise, how do you deliver unless you talk to that organization. And those colleagues were key. And I had - and other people in WFP - numerous meetings with Al-Shabaab to make sure that, you know, pure humanitarian access negotiations. We could get where we needed to be. But it was dangerous. And at different times - but it was very closely linked in time - three of the colleagues that I knew, one very well, were killed in different ways. But all horrific ways. I found that really difficult.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:27

For being UN?

 

Denise Brown 31:30

For being different things. For being in the wrong place, the wrong time. For perhaps being too associated with the UN. For perhaps having too much information. For different reasons. Yeah. There was a lot of death around us then. That was 2007 to 2009. There was a lot of death.

 

Melissa Fleming 31:59

And how did that affect you personally?

 

Denise Brown 32:01

Oh, at one point, I called WFP, said, ¡®I think I need a bit of a break.¡¯ So, I went to New York for two years. I needed some downtime. You can't¡­ It's not healthy for us to stay in these highly stressful, intense environments continuously, right? Your body gets too used to it and you¡¯re often always wound up. We need to unwind. Yeah, I think it's important for us to recognize as individuals, but for the institution to recognize when people need to take a step back.

 

Melissa Fleming 32:44

I'm sure. I guess though after two years in New York you decided you¡¯d had enough downtime.

 

Denise Brown 32:53

I had enough downtime. And my kids were like, ¡®We don¡¯t like New York.¡¯ So, I got a call. Could I go as Country Director to Niger for WFP? And I was like, ¡®Yes, of course, I can do that. I can do that.¡¯

 

Melissa Fleming 33:09

And the kids could come?

 

Denise Brown 33:11

I only took my youngest son. The eldest one had already finished high school and the middle one had two years left. So, I sent him to Paris with his father. But the youngest one came with me. And they're all super adaptable. And so, it was fine. But it was so hot there. I couldn't take it after two years. Even though¡­

 

Melissa Fleming 33:32

Came from Vancouver.

 

Denise Brown 33:33

I couldn't take it. It was like 45 degrees. But the kindest people in the world come from Niger. The kindest people.

 

Melissa Fleming 33:43

So, they were very open to your being there.

 

Denise Brown 33:46

Absolutely. In fact, the national colleagues still write to me. Someone wrote to me this week. They are¡­ Somehow, I don't know what it is. But they are very gentle, very sincere.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:01

They must be worried about you too.

 

Denise Brown 34:03

Yes, probably a little bit. Probably a little bit.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:06

That's why they're writing to you.

 

Denise Brown 34:07

Yes. Probably.

 

Melissa Fleming 34:08

Checking in.

 

Denise Brown 34:09

Checking in.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 34:12

Is there anything that gives you inspiration today?

 

Denise Brown 34:20

The UN can be absolutely magical when we put our mind to it. We don't always put our mind to it collectively. But when I go into those communities and people see us showing up with these huge convoys marked O.O.H., ¡°oon¡± in Ukrainian, and they receive us with such warmth and such gratitude, which I don't like because they shouldn't be. There shouldn't be gratitude. That's our obligation to be there. But it just¡­ Yeah. It means a lot. It means a lot whether it's in Ukraine or Central African Republic or Somalia or Afghanistan. It means a lot.

 

Melissa Fleming 35:11

We're in [some] places no one else is.

 

Denise Brown 35:13

We're in [some] places where very few others are. Very few others. And we have again the means, the experience, the capacity, the determination to be there. We are very strong when we want to be. And that inspires me.

 

Melissa Fleming 35:36

When you think about this horrific war that you're living through, operating in. Do you have any different thoughts about war than you had before you went to Ukraine?

 

Denise Brown 35:51

Only that there has to be a way to stop this. But I don't know what it is. And I can see nobody else knows what it is either. So, it's something that the world has to grapple with, right? We've dealt with conflicts. Many, many conflicts, proxy wars. This one is ugly. All conflict and war is ugly. But this one feels particularly ugly. When I stand in front of these buildings, and I think. I pinch myself. I really do sometimes and say, ¡®I cannot be in a movie about World War Two. Like what is going on here?¡¯ That's what it feels like sometimes. And I realize that the world - with all of our institutions, our knowledge, our resources, our capacity experience - we haven't been able to stop it. It's hugely depressing.

 

Melissa Fleming 36:50

And there has to be a way out.

 

Denise Brown 36:52

There must be a way out. I just don't see it.

 

 

Melissa Fleming 36:57

What are you hoping for?

 

Denise Brown 37:00

I hope, but I know that hope is unrealistic, that at some level reason will prevail. And the unnecessary suffering and loss of life that we see will stop, will make this stop. But it hasn't been enough so far. So, my hope is sort of irrelevant, actually.

 

Melissa Fleming 37:22

Denise, thank you.

 

Denise Brown 37:24

Oh, thank you.

 

Melissa Fleming 37:27

 

Thank you for listening to Awake at Night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working against huge challenges to make this world a better and safer place.

 

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. On Twitter, we¡¯re and I'm . Do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

 

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Jen Thomas, Adam Paylor, to my colleagues at the UN: Roberta Politi, Julia Hagel, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi and Bissera Kostova. And the team at the UN studio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier. Additional music was by Pascal Wyse.