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Serge Brammertz 00:00

I really enjoy the work I am doing because I really believe it, and I find it is an absolute privilege to do something meaningful and to be able to make a difference in the life of survivors and victims.

Melissa Fleming 00:16

From the United Nations, I'm Melissa Fleming. Welcome to Awake at Night. My guest this week is a man who has spent years dealing with terrible crimes against humanity. Serge Brammertz is one of the world¡¯s leading international prosecutors, who worked to convict the former Bosnian Serb leader, Radovan Karadzic and the Bosnian Serb army commander Ratko Mladic. He is currently chief prosecutor of the International Residual Mechanism for Criminal Tribunals, the organization which is in charge of tracking down fugitive criminals from wars in the former Yugoslavia and the genocide in Rwanda. He is a remarkable man. Serge, nice to see you here in New York in the studio.

Serge Brammertz 01:24

Thanks for having me.

Melissa Fleming 01:26

You have a long career investigating and prosecuting international criminals. Is there any conviction or case that you are particularly proud of that you worked on?

Serge Brammertz 01:38

There have been many important cases. And, you know, very often people focus more on the accused and less on the victims of the crime. So, that is why I like to say that all cases are equally important ¨C because, behind those cases, there are thousands of victims who want to see justice being done. But if I have to mention two specific cases ¨C or three cases, if I may: Definitely, when I took over the Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia in 2008 there was already talk about closing the tribunal and, at the time, General Mladic and President Karadzic were both still fugitives. And, definitely, having been able, together with my team in 2008, to get Karadzic and Mladic arrested in 2011, and having them prosecuted and convicted to lifetime sentences for genocide in Srebrenica, those were definitely two very important cases. And, more recently, the arrest of Felicien Kabuga, allegedly one of the masterminds and financiers of the genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda in the ¡®90s, who only was arrested two years ago, in a place near Paris. This was definitely also one of the very important cases we were working on. And, we consider it a big achievement, thinking about the victims.

Melissa Fleming 02:59

These figures, who are so key in these atrocities, were at large for many years. How did you manage to track them down?

Serge Brammertz 03:13

Well, tracking of fugitives is a very technical activity. And the longer it takes, the more difficult it is. The problem with the majority of fugitives, if we take former Yugoslavia (is the following): In the first years after Karadzic and Mladic, for example, were indicted, they were moving freely around. They were considered as national heroes. They had protection by the then governments. There are even stories about Karadzic, after having been indicted, getting standing ovations in a football stadium. And, I think it was also very difficult for the peacekeepers in Bosnia and Herzegovina in the first years after the Dayton agreement, after 1995, to arrest war criminals, because it would destabilize a fragile, existing peace. So, it took a number of years before there was enough political will to have those individuals arrested. And then, they went into hiding, very successfully, into military barracks, protected and helped by associates. So, we had to wait for the political situation to be changing. And, for example, for Karadzic and Mladic, there is definitely the US government but also the European Union who have played an important role by saying that: ¡°Well, you countries, Serbia, Bosnia, Croatia, you want to join the European Union? Well, a number of conditions need to be fulfilled. And the rule of law is very important. So, if you want to join the club, arresting the remaining fugitives is very, very important.¡±

Melissa Fleming 04:43

Can you describe the day when Radovan Karadzic was arrested character and how you felt when you learned the news?

Serge Brammertz 04:54

You know, I started in January 2008. I took over from Carla del Ponte who had been a prosecutor for many years and my first trip had been to Bosnia and Herzegovina, where I met with victims¡¯ organizations from all sides, which is very important to be mentioned, because there have been victims from all sides, from all ethnicities, and perpetrators in all groups. But, definitely, the group of victims I met in the meantime 30 or 40 times are the Mothers of Srebrenica. I was so aware when I met them that arresting those remaining fugitives will of course never bring back their loved ones, but it would give some kind of relief that justice has been done. So, when I visited them also in Srebrenica, in Sarajevo, seeing in which very modest conditions they were living, their number one request was not even to say: ¡°well, the UN has not prevented those crimes of happening.¡± ¡°Our number one priority, our number one number request to you is to have those individuals arrested.¡±

The day Karadzic was arrested I, of course, absolutely thought about those discussions. And they came to The Hague, and I could see what it meant for them. Practically, on the day ¨C I remember (it was) 21st of July 2008 ¨C I got a phone call from the Chief of Staff of the Serbian President who said: ¡°Prosecutor, I need to see you immediately.¡± I said: ¡°Well, are you in The Hague?¡± ¡°No, no, I'm in Belgrade. But I¡¯m coming, if you¡¯re available. I said: ¡°Please come. What is it about?¡± He said: ¡°Well, it's confidential.¡± And, I remember, he came to my office. I was sure it was about the fugitives, and I had the poster of the remaining fugitives on my desk. So, I gave him a pen. And he made a cross on Karadzic and was telling me: ¡°Look, this afternoon, an operation is taking place. We think it¡¯s him.¡± He was at the time, ¡°Dr. Dabic.¡± Perhaps you remember those images of this man with this white beard, who had been even in TV shows as Dr. Dabic, when, in reality, he was the most wanted war criminal, Karadzic. And so, I was sitting with him in my office when the operation took place and was successful. Of course, he was denying being Karadzic. And then I was told: ¡°Well, we have to do the DNA comparative analysis. We will call you in the evening to confirm.¡± So, I invited a number of colleagues to my office for a meeting, without giving too many details. And then we got the phone call by the Serbian President confirming that it was our fugitive. So, it was really important as an achievement, obviously for my office and my colleagues who were working on this for many, many years. But you know, it was immensely important for the survivors and the victims to see this day happening.

Melissa Fleming 07:50

Can you just describe what happened in the office when you got that phone call from the President?

Serge Brammertz 07:55

Well, it was very personal moment, because I had invited to my office several prosecutors, a few American prosecutors among them, who had been already for 15 years at the tribunal. And it was definitely a very emotional moment, because if you interact with those survivors on a daily basis, you know what it means. You know, for a prosecutor ¨C I think in the majority of professions you can have ¨C you want to be relevant, you want to be able to make a difference in the life of someone. And this was definitely one of those highlights we had in our career, to really say: ¡°Well, we go through a lot of obstacles, we are having a lot of cases where we¡¯re not so successful. But here we really achieved what was meant to be achieved.¡± And well, it showed that the United Nations by setting up this tribunal, this was really important.

Melissa Fleming 08:56

You prosecuted Radovan Karadzic. That was the beginning of the real high-profile trials that were to come. What was your role? And what do you remember from that trial?

Serge Brammertz 09:14

Well, you know, the moment you are informed the fugitive has been arrested you are, of course, extremely satisfied that this happened. But five minutes later, you think, wow, now I have to set up the trial. This is someone who has been a fugitive for many years. We have to update the indictment, we have to see if witnesses are still available. Where's our evidence? So, it is immediately after those few moments of strong professional satisfaction, you go immediately into all the problems of resources, trial management¡­ Of course, when he was transferred to the Hague, I was in the courtroom for the initial appearance when the procedure started.

Melissa Fleming 10:00

What was that like? Can you describe the scene?

Serge Brammertz 10:04

Well, it's difficult to describe. As the prosecutor, you are used to this, right? I think it was much more emotional for the Mothers of Srebrenica and other victims sitting in the courtroom and seeing Karadzic, whom they hadn't seen since ¡®95. Seeing him in the courtroom facing the judges. For a prosecutor, it's like for a doctor, right? You have to keep the necessary distance. Because if you are getting emotional about issues, you will lose unnecessary distance and probably you will miss some of the important objective elements in terms of evidence you need to put forward. Now, of course, it was important because you have this feeling of ¡°mission accomplished¡±, but it was only the start of a long process. You have to get trial ready, the prosecution phase and the defense phase. You always have appeal. You have hundreds of victims coming forward to testify. So, it was obviously a process which took several years.

Melissa Fleming 11:07

And at the end of that process, when he was finally convicted, what were you feeling?

Serge Brammertz 11:11

Again, it's mission accomplished, right? We got in the appeals proceedings in Karadzic, but also in Mladic. And, in Mladic, only last year, finally, life sentences (were given) for the siege of Sarajevo, during which more than 1,000 kids were killed, many of them by snipers when they were playing. They were convicted for ethnic cleansing in many municipalities. They were convicted for taking hostage Blue Helmets during the war. And of course, they were convicted for the genocide in Srebrenica, where in a few weeks, more than 8,000 people have been assassinated.

Melissa Fleming 11:50

Going back to Srebrenica, knowing that UN peacekeepers were implicated in not being able, in the end, to protect those men and boys who were massacred ¨C over 8,000 ¨C did this have an effect on you, in your sense of responsibility as chief prosecutor for a UN tribunal that was set up to bring justice to those men and boys and their families?

Serge Brammertz 12:21

If we look at humanity the last few hundred years, I would say the majority of conflicts could have been prevented, and any form of conflict, in the family, among friends, between countries or the world stage, any form of violence or any form of conflict is a failure. And definitely the genocide in Srebrenica could have been prevented. Now, we know that the number of Blue Helmets present there was quite low, their weapons were really absolutely not putting them in a position to be able to confront the Serbian soldiers. So, I don't want to blame the individual soldiers who are really, I think, trying to do their best, but definitely the international community has failed the population. So, Srebrenica, because it was a UN safe haven, normally people should have been saved by going there. And this is definitely one of the additional reasons why I think that, as international community, we have failed to prevent those crimes from happening. But it has always been our duty to make sure that individuals are still prosecuted. And, of course, if you look at the world today, sometimes I'm told: ¡°Those are crimes committed in the 90s. Should we not concentrate on conflicts which are happening today?¡± But if you have been the mother or the wife of someone who has been executed, when very often the bodies have still not been found until today, this is reality which has impacted them 25 years ago, but it is still in the center of their life, every day of their life, also today. And, still trying to bring justice to them is important.

Melissa Fleming 14:00

I recently also met those Mothers in Srebrenica and felt deeply moved by their loss, but also by their advocacy and you know, they're incredibly resilient and I understand that they consider you a son.

Serge Brammertz 14:21

Well, you know, as a prosecutor, you always need to keep the necessary distance, independence, impartiality. But you cannot meet with those victims, as I do, for the last 14 years without developing a personal relationship. So, they always say, when I meet with them, when they hug me, when they cook for me, when they receive me that I'm their son, and that, as UN tribunal, we are there hope that justice still prevails.

Melissa Fleming 14:53

You also feel very strongly and proud of your work on Rwanda. Have you met also the victims the way you have met the Mothers of Srebrenica. Have you had a chance to meet some of the survivors?

Serge Brammertz 15:09

Of course. Every time I'm going, I meet the representatives of Ibuka, which is the victims¡¯ organization which has many members. When I was there last month, I met the organization which is representing victims of sexual violence. There is a student associations of children survivors of the genocide¡­ For a prosecutor, they are the everyday reminder why our work is important and why we have to continue doing what we are doing. It's always very difficult to understand what must happen to someone who was a teacher, a police officer, a waiter in a restaurant. How can a person who was having a totally normal life, within one week or two weeks, become a genocidaire and starting to kill neighbors just because they are different. It's really difficult to understand. And it makes you aware that manipulation of individuals is very dangerous. Hate speech. It's very, very dangerous. Genocide denial is extremely harmful and is insulting victims and survivors, because, in fact, genocide denial is the final phase of the genocide. First, you try to destroy an entire community, and you destroy the history. And then by denying even that the genocide took place, you really tried to erase the entire memory about an important group.

Melissa Fleming 16:40

There is genocide denial around the Holocaust, around the genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda and denial of Srebrenica. How does that make you feel, when you go and return back to Bosnia and Herzegovina, and you visit perhaps Banja Luka or a town in Republika Srpska and see a poster of Ratko Mladic, a man that you convicted for war crimes?

Serge Brammertz 17:11

It is definitely, today, I would say my biggest frustration after being in this job for so many years to see that we haven't managed ¨C and, if I say ¡°we¡±, it's the tribunal, but also the international community, which put the tribunal in place ¨C that we haven't managed to convince individuals who belong to the same ethnicity, the same group as the convicted war criminals that there's nothing heroic about what individuals have done. We have in court first always insisted on the fact that people prosecuted our individuals for their individual criminal responsibility. It's not Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, which is indicted. It is an individual, which has taken advantage of his or her position in a country to commit all these crimes. And, when I'm going to former Yugoslavia, I'm really trying to speak as often as I can, at universities or other places, to really explain. Every single person indicted and convicted in The Hague ¨C no one has been convicted because they were defending their own people, or because they have been heroic in fighting at the battlefield. Every single person prosecuted and convicted, is prosecuted and convicted for violations of the Geneva Conventions, meaning executing prisoners, raping women, having rape as a weapon of war, destroying civilian property, destroying religious places. So, every single person indicted is exactly the opposite of a hero. And the only heroes in fact are the survivors and victims. So, we had more than 5,000 of them at the Yugoslav tribunal who came forward again and again and again, despite all their suffering, and for some of them it was a traumatizing experience to come again to The Hague. But for others, they said, this was the most important moment in my life to be able to tell my story and to see that there is given visibility to the crimes I suffered.

Melissa Fleming 19:12

Beyond your job as a prosecutor, the ICTY, the International Criminal Tribunal for Yugoslavia, is a tribunal that also aims to bring about reconciliation on the ground. How do you reconcile prosecuting the criminals with also the kind of aspiration to bring about reconciliation?

Serge Brammertz 19:32

You know, the issue of reconciliation is a very complex one, and some interlocutors and some politicians in the former Yugoslavia would say: ¡°Well, in fact, the Tribunal is achieving the opposite of reconciliation, because every time there is a judgement in the Hague, acquittal or conviction, one of the communities is very unhappy, and all the feelings are coming up. And it is really disturbing, more than helping, reconciliation process.¡± You will not be surprised that I absolutely disagree with this assessment. And, if there are those reactions, it just means that the society has not been able to deal with them properly. I would say that reconciliation alone can never in itself be achieved through a judicial process. Reconciliation needs to come from within a society, from within the victims¡¯ groups, but also the perpetrator groups, and you need responsible politicians who really are honest and serious about reconciliation. But what I would like to say is that the judicial process and prosecutions are absolutely a precondition to give reconciliation a chance, because how can you look forward to a joint future, having joined projects, if you cannot agree about the wrongdoings of the past?

Melissa Fleming 20:52

How about in Rwanda? It has been recognized that reconciliation has, to a large extent, happened there.

Serge Brammertz 21:02

Yes. There is no doubt that the reconciliation process in Rwanda has been more successful. There have been more than 800,000 people killed, you had thousands of perpetrators, right? An important part of your entire society was in one way or another involved in committing the killings. And it was impossible for any judicial institution to really provide comprehensive justice. That's why you have the gacaca courts, really local courts, then you have the national jurisdiction, and then obviously, the tribunal for Rwanda, which plays an important role. But it is a reality that, after having served a sentence, people were admitted in society, working again, in regular jobs. And many people, the thousands of people convicted in gacaca courts, managed to be reintegrated in society. So, it is definitely a much more convincing success story than in the former Yugoslavia, where, obviously, a number of different countries are involved. And where, obviously, a number of third countries are playing an important role as well.

Melissa Fleming 22:19

When you delve into these details and you see the absolute inhumanity, man¡¯s inhumanity to man in so many cases, how does that make you feel about humanity? Do you have any insights? Is it in everybody to do this, these kinds of crimes? Or is it just certain people who are driven more?

Serge Brammertz 22:50

Well, probably once you don't have any more the framework of society controlling the acts and punishing certain forms of behavior, of course a number of individuals are losing all humanity in order to act in this way. I remember at one of the cases I worked on, there had been hundreds of civilians in a building close to a church, and when the Interahamwe came, they started killing everyone inside. And they were using machetes. And because there were hundreds of people, and there were only a limited number of killers, they would spend the day with a machete killing people, they would close the doors in the evening, and would start again the next day. And the killings took more than five or six days. And I remember that we interviewed one of the perpetrators later on, and we said: ¡°So, in the evening, you closed the doors, you went home to your wife and your children. And the next day you came back. And you have done this during five days.¡± And his reaction was to say: ¡°Yeah, it took five days, we could have done it in three days, if people had been more cooperative.¡± He had even not understood that the meaning of our question was: ¡°You have yourself a wife and children, you go back to them every evening. And it's not preventing you from killing all day innocent civilians.¡± And it made me really aware that you know, the expression they used during the genocide was to say: ¡°I'm going to work.¡± And I'm still not understanding today what is happening in the mind of someone to stop believing that the other one is a human being that deserves respect.

Melissa Fleming 24:53

I wonder if you can tell me what's keeping you awake at night these days?

Serge Brammertz 24:59

I have sometimes been getting this question: ¡°You are a prosecutor for 30 years, you deal with the dark side of humanity, what is this doing to you as a human being?¡± And I'm always tempted to say that, well, I really enjoy the work I'm doing because I really believe in it and I find it is an absolute privilege to do something meaningful and to be able to make a difference in the life of survivors and victims, so it never keeps me awake at night. I'm very passionate about it, I believe in what we are doing. But I think I managed to find the right balance between commitment, working hard and being successful, but at the same time, not allowing myself to be emotionally too involved.

Melissa Fleming 25:54

So, I guess that maybe answers my next question about whether you have yourself suffered any kind of secondary trauma from hearing these stories? You spend so much time with survivors and you confront the war criminals.

Serge Brammertz 26:14

No, personally, I think I found the right balance and right way to deal with it, also trying to do a lot of sports when I need to get my brain free. So, I don¡¯t think it's an issue for myself, but it is a reality for many of my colleagues and staff. Because I'm not the one taking the statements of individual victims. Those are my investigators. And I would say the group of colleagues who are the most vulnerable and affected are, in fact, our interpreters. Because very often they come from the community of the victims, and they are translating the real statement of the victim into English or French, in order to be used in the courtroom, and they all have their own family story. And, for them, it has for many been a very traumatizing experience, which is recognized by the UN and where we are providing support.

Melissa Fleming 27:05

What led you to this kind of work in the first place?

Serge Brammertz 27:09

Well, good question. My first day at university, when I was studying law, when I was 18, from the first day that I had a criminal law, I knew I wanted to be a prosecutor. So, for me, my professional choices were quite easy. So, I've done my law degree when I was 18. At the time, you needed to be 26-year-old to be a prosecutor. So, I went three years into private practice, which I did not like too much. And the day I turned 26, I applied for the first available position for junior prosecutors. And since I'm 26, I am a prosecutor. So, for the last 34 years, I've been a prosecutor, first in my home region in Belgium.

I'm coming from the German speaking part of Belgium, we have our own history, because over the last hundred years, we changed several times nationalities, we have been part of Germany, and then after the Versailles Treaty, we became part of Belgium. So, of course, when I grew up, there were a lot of stories about the Second World War. And you have in my own village, in my own city, individuals who some were fighting on the German side, and others on the Belgian side. So, I think I very early discovered that there's nothing which can justify any war from an individual perspective, right? And it's, as I said earlier, always a failure.

I was prosecuting in this area, where we have a border with the Netherlands, with Germany and Luxembourg. So, I was dealing mainly on international cases. And then, I became national coordinator for organized crime in Brussels. And then, when the International Criminal Court was set up in 2003, I was invited to the Hague, because we were the first national jurisdiction already working on international crimes. I was encouraged to apply as deputy prosecutor at the ICC and I spent three years there. And then, one day, I got a phone call from a Kofi Annan, whom I had never met before, I mean, from his Chef de Cabinet, saying Secretary General wants to see you. And he asked me to take this assignment in Lebanon as the Commissioner for the International Independent Investigation Commission into the assassination of Rafic Hariri, the former prime minister. So, I spent two years there. Very interesting time, as you can imagine, a number of political assassinations took place during my time in Lebanon. And then Ban Ki Moon, as Secretary General, appointed me as Chief Prosecutor of the Yugoslav Tribunal two years later. So, yes it was not really a career you could have planned. I'm coming from a fantastic family. From the countryside, my father, a carpenter, him and my mom, taking care of the four kids with a very happy youth, being a lot in nature.

Melissa Fleming 30:13

What do your parents think about what you do? Are they alive still?

Serge Brammertz 30:18

My mother is still alive, and we had two weeks ago her 85th birthday. All the family came together, and she had invited her best friends. Every Friday, she is going out having lunch with her best girlfriends. So, she¡¯s still very fit and active. And well, you know, a mother is always proud of all her children. And I¡¯m the one who¡¯s always absent. Only going home two-three times a year.

Melissa Fleming 30:49

She understands why?

Serge Brammertz 30:51

Yes, of course. And like all mothers, she¡¯s of course proud of the achievements.

Melissa Fleming 30:56

Do you have any tips for somebody who might want to become an international prosecutor?

Serge Brammertz 31:05

Well, you know, when I'm speaking at universities, students ask me: ¡°Do you have any advice for us?¡± And it's always really difficult to formulate. But what I say very often to young people who want to become active in the international domain is: ¡°Look, myself, I'm watching news at four or five different channels every day. Keep your very critical spirit, don't take any information you are receiving for granted. Make your own opinion, try to be informed, don¡¯t rush into judgement.¡± This is really what I'm really advising people to do, be very alert and very interested. And when I'm hiring new lawyers or new junior prosecutors in my office, I like to say that well, you know, now you are working with me in the UN, but I need 50% space in your brain. Because you have now to learn that, what you have learned as being the solution for a problem, is perhaps a solution, but probably not. And you have to learn that in many parts of the world there are different ways to addressing issues and to addressing problems. And that definitely when you're coming from a Western European country, that we always should avoid having the arrogance to know exactly what is best for people on other continents. So be very open minded. Study first, listen first, before you express any opinion or come with any solution for any kind of problem.

Melissa Fleming 32:37

Serge, thank you so much for bringing us into your world.

Serge Brammertz 32:39

It's really my pleasure.

Melissa Fleming 32:28

Thank you for listening to awake at night. We'll be back soon with more incredible and inspiring stories from people working to do some good in this world at a time of global crisis.

To find out more about the series and the extraordinary people featured, do visit un.org/awake-at-night. On Twitter, we¡¯re and I'm . Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and please do take the time to review us. It helps more people find the show.

Thanks to my editor Bethany Bell, to Jen Thomas, Adam Paylor and the team at Purpose and to my colleagues at the UN: Roberta Politi, Katerina Kitidi, Geneva Damayanti, Tulin Battikhi, Bissera Kostova and the team at the UN studio. The original music for this podcast was written and performed by Nadine Shah and produced by Ben Hillier.