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Africa Renewal: Could you please tell us why the UN is organizing such a major conference on oceans now, and what you expect to achieve?

Mr. Thomson: The ocean conference is in support of [SDG] 14, which is mandated under the 2030 Sustainable Development Agenda to conserve and to sustainably manage ocean resources. This conference is probably the best and possibly the last opportunity to reverse the cycle of decline the ocean is currently caught in. That may sound alarmist, but, coming from an island country, I know the ocean is in deep trouble. The science is clear. Marine pollution is taking us to a point where, by 2050, there will be more plastic in the ocean than there will be fish. We just need to look at the effects of climate change on the ocean to see how much trouble the ocean is in. Take a look around to see what human sewage and runoff from agriculture and industry are doing to coastal ecosystems. This ocean conference is very timely. We will have scientists, civil society and the private sector present. This is not just about governments; it鈥檚 about humanity responding to the woes that have been put upon the ocean and correcting them.听

You recently said that human-induced problems require human-induced solutions. What did you mean by that?

The Paris Climate Agreement is a human solution to a human-induced problem. Our big job is to stay true to that agreement. When you look at ocean acidification, the solutions will emerge. I don鈥檛 pretend to have them on my desk, but I have talked to experts; it鈥檚 about understanding the problem and then working out solutions. We have to stop these crazy subsidies that are given by industrialized nations to fishing fleets. We have to identify what species are under threat and agree to only fish to quota or stop fishing those species altogether. Those are human solutions. We鈥檙e tipping a garbage truck full of plastic into the ocean every minute of every day. We have to have better rubbish collection systems. We have to do what Rwanda has done: ban plastic bags. Just don鈥檛 use plastic bags, even if your government can鈥檛 get around to banning them.

You mentioned the effect of climate change on fish. How can we reverse the trend and support the worst-affected regions?

The overall problem is climate change鈥攂ringing ocean warming and ocean desertification. That鈥檚 the mother of them all in terms of problems with fish stocks. We have to stay true to the Paris Climate Agreement. But beyond that, we can set up marine protected areas where we can sustainably manage our fish stocks. We have to stop illegal and harmful fishing practices such as bottom dredging. We have to end those ridiculous fish subsidies and use that money to restore coastal ecosystems.

As you pointed out, some parts of the ocean are heavily polluted. What are the other main pollutants besides plastics?听听听听听听听听

Microplastics, which are bits of plastic inserted into things like toothpaste and face creams and other cosmetics, are a big problem. We have to stop the industrial use of microplastics because they get ingested into the biosphere. Their implications are far-reaching. When I was in Indonesia recently, I talked to a minister who said they have come to realize that by not paying more attention to how garbage, which is basically plastic, gets into the ocean, they were hurting employment. This is because it puts tourists off when they start getting hit by plastics at a beach. Basically, the minister was saying they鈥檝e come to realize that if they want tourism to flourish鈥攊t鈥檚 a great job provider and earner of foreign exchange鈥攖hey鈥檝e got to clean up the plastic pollution on their beaches and in their seas.

Since, as you said, plastics are the main pollutants, and given how the global economy is dependent on plastic products, can the world survive without plastics?

Absolutely! Human ingenuity knows no bounds, and I have no doubt that we will break this problem. It was within my lifetime when plastic problems emerged in the world, and within my children鈥檚 lifetime that it should be solved. Hopefully in my lifetime, but I doubt it. There鈥檚 a lot of thought being put into a more circular economy to reuse plastics so that they鈥檙e not thrown away. If you must have a plastic cigarette lighter, why can鈥檛 it be a refillable one? Likewise with plastic straws, they鈥檙e one of the big things that end up on the beaches. Why not substitute that with paper straws?

You have talked about fishing subsidies. Are countries that provide these subsidies willing to stop them? And if not, what should be the solution?

First of all, let鈥檚 look at the problem. The problem is we have massive fleets of industrialized fishing boats out there basically depleting the world鈥檚 fish stocks. Let鈥檚 sort this out: an easy target from my point of view is fishing subsidies. Where do you address that? It鈥檚 at the World Trade Organization [WTO], which is the best forum for dealing with subsidies. But it should also be among the domestic populations of the countries concerned. They should be saying, 鈥淲hy is our money being spent on these fleets which are no longer economically viable?鈥� There also needs to be international action at WTO level. The Ocean Conference will be a good platform for us to articulate that.

Obviously it won鈥檛 be easy given the experience with talks at the WTO.

No, but they need to start waking up to some of the realities. I was in West Africa recently and I saw the huge infrastructure in artisanal fishing. Thousands of boats line up on the beaches. As the fish is depleted by these big, industrialized fleets, what can these guys do with the boats which are basically their only family possession of value? People will turn to things like human trafficking as an alternative if there鈥檚 no fish out there anymore. And the pirogues that I saw are fully capable of moving from the West African coast to Europe. This is the consequence of irresponsible industrial fishing. If you鈥檙e going to be killing off the livelihoods of artisanal fishermen, expect there will be negative consequences. And it鈥檚 also a driver for migration if people lose their traditional livelihoods.

You mentioned the effect on small island developing states (SIDS) to changing weather patterns, particularly rising sea levels. What are we doing about it?

SIDS are particularly vulnerable to these changes in the ocean. This is one of the reasons why the SIDS were the ones that were really at the forefront of the formation of SDG 14, the call for the Ocean Conference and the call for ongoing action between now and when [by 2030] we are mandated to achieve success. In fact, some of the targets within SDG 14 fall earlier than that. For SIDS, ocean warming is one of the biggest of threats鈥擨 think it鈥檚 about 40% of the drivers of the rise in sea levels. For some countries, this means going totally under water. 听听

How do you respond to critics who say, 鈥淲ell, the UN is very good at talking and organizing conferences but we do not see much action on the ground鈥�?

One of the things I say about the United Nations is that we are not the be-all and end-all. We are basically the gathering of humanity. We don鈥檛 come from another planet. What we are trying to do with the Ocean Conference is say to humanity, 鈥淲e鈥檝e caused this problem. What are we going to do to fix it?鈥� This is a conference not just for governments. It鈥檚 open to civil society, the private sector and NGOs. We are hoping to raise hundreds, hopefully thousands of voluntary commitments through an online register鈥攖hat鈥檚 an action agenda we can work with in the coming years.听

How far are African countries involved in the conference?

Africa has a massive coastline. I鈥檝e been encouraging African countries to participate at the conference at a high level because this is existential business for many of them who rely on the ocean so heavily for their protein. When I was in Ethiopia, they said, 鈥淪DG 14? Glad to hear you鈥檙e working on that, but we don鈥檛 have a coastline.鈥� I said, 鈥淟ook, 50% of the air you are breathing comes from the ocean. If something goes wrong with the ocean鈥檚 health, it鈥檒l affect you. Think in terms of getting behind SDG 14 even if you are a landlocked country.鈥�

So how much cooperation have you been getting from African countries?

I was in Senegal and they鈥檙e very fired up about it. They will be one of the co-chairs of the partnership dialogues, so I鈥檝e encouraged them to speak to the rest of the West African community. Kenyans are very involved and I鈥檝e encouraged them to speak to the rest of the East African community. This has been my approach. When I was in Egypt, I told them, 鈥淧lease make sure this is not a forgotten corner of Africa. You鈥檝e got the Red Sea. You鈥檝e got the Mediterranean鈥攂oth with big problems. Be [at the conference].鈥� So there鈥檚 a lot of skin in the game for Africa at this conference, and I hope to see many African leaders present.

And finally, how optimistic are you about implementing the conference鈥檚 resolutions?

Look, two years of hard work have gone into this conference. It was clear to me after the preparatory meeting a month or so ago that the momentum is there. It鈥檚 clear to me from just talking to big civil society organizations, from talking to big member states, that everybody realizes that this is our best and last chance to get things right. I am very hopeful that we can turn things around. I鈥檝e got grandchildren鈥擨 want them to have an ocean where they can see live coral, where they can see fish in the ocean. I鈥檝e been to parts of the world鈥擨鈥檓 a diver鈥攚here you swim in the water and see nothing. It鈥檚 beautiful and the water is clear. But you see no life, no fish. We don鈥檛 want that to happen to the ocean.听 听